Like Tree27Likes

Bank churning account

Closed Thread
Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    25

    Thank you for your advice. The freezing of his sole name account is correct, though it also means he is stuck in whatever was the last equity fund this crooked account manager put him in, but they also froze a joint account he has with his daughter that was being used to pay all of his expenses, which he is now incapable of doing. So my father (in law) is a man with money that in practice has access to none. Lucky we have the resources to pay all his ongoing expenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by shri:
    Solve your problem first - get the account unfrozen and liquid before you go seeking damages, financial or emotional. HKMA is the best venue to start and if the advisor / AM is SFC licensed there is a good chance they can act in conjunction.

    Seriously, this will consume your life and lead you down rather negative paths. The impact of newspaper stories last for all of 30 seconds these days and you may say or you may be misquoted and appear to say things which might affect the investigation / legal recourse you may have.

    Have seen far worse shit being done in this town, when it comes to elderly people who have more faith in institutions than their family - a generational thing, not your fault at all. Very little reputational damage other than some hype, which everyone gossips about and then forgets.

    Without knowing details, the bank is correct in freezing funds, as there may be conflicting claims down the road as to who the guardian is and they do need to ensure that whoever they take instructions from or work with has proper authority.

    Without a power of attorney, given to you before the dementia diagnosis and the incidents of churning / freezing, it is not the bank's position to make a judgement that you're authorised to manage that account.

    Hope you understand what I'm trying to get to.

  2. #22

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    薄扶林
    Posts
    47,963
    they also froze a joint account he has with his daughter that was being used to pay all of his expenses, which he is now incapable of doing
    I think this is technically correct too, as the bank does not really know who the funds belong to.

    Tangent: I have not confirmed this, and I really should, but joint bank accounts are not strictly 50/50. The Mrs and I opened a bank account recently and during the account opening, we were clearly asked "who should be the first name" on the account, the guy was not able to answer some of my questions, but I believe there is some sort of subtle differentiation in "joint accounts".

    I assume you've read about the process for an Emergency Guardianship order? While I am not sure if your situation is an emergency, but there is a clear provision for financial abuse. I don't think it applies here, but again you know more about your situation here than we do.

    Financial abuse typically can be something like another relative/third party forcing your father in law to make financial decisions - which is not possible here since his accounts are frozen.

  3. #23

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    薄扶林
    Posts
    47,963

    Happened to see this and thought you might be interested.



    Greg Hingston, Head of Retail Banking and Wealth Management, Hong Kong at HSBC, said account holders who are dementia patients can grant legal power to designated family members or carers after setting up Enduring Power of Attorney (EPOA). Under which, the attorney of such account holder can help manage the bank finances of the patients when the latter loses mental ability in handling the business.

    HSBC furthered it is studying on setup of basic saving accounts for dementia patients, allowing them to enjoy basic deposit/ withdraw services. The bank is also researching the possibility of covering more services for patients, such as application of credit cards and debit cards.
    2018/12/06 13:06


  4. #24

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    25

    EPOA is a great tool, but my father never cooperated on that. Setting up any new accounts at this point is already beyond his ability. What banks should do is to stress to their employees that taking advantage of people with dementia will result in being fired and barred from the banking industry for life. And the government should have laws against elder abuse and prosecute account managers that cheat dementia clients and make them serve jail time. That will clean up these disgusting practices.


  5. #25

    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Cramped island
    Posts
    5,585

    I would advise give the bank some time to sort it out. Banks are suppose to retain data for 7 years at least so you have enough time to dig into the details. If banks don't give you a satisfactory reply, then escalate to HKMA and SFC.

    Generally post the lehman minibomb, most banks these days are very wary of mis-selling products. So challenges get checked through quite thoroughly. Unfortunately you are not the account owner so it is not wrong for the bank to withhold information from you until you obtain proper legal authorisation for representation.

    Remember, the 'threat' of reputation is meaningful until you really spill the beans to the press. Once you spill it you are not going to get back any money. Keeping it now until the bank totally rejects your claim, would give you more leverages.

    Over the years I have claimed back quite a fair bit of money from banks.. both in HK and Singapore. One for myself, one for my parent in law, and one for someone that came to me for help. Similar strategy works. Write, state your case, threaten with basis, and give them time to sort it out. Once I was rejected, but just write in again told them why they are wrong and what I would do if they don't correct the problem, and they actually paid me back those losses.

    Patience is key and being rush wouldn't help in such cases.

    shri and Drunken Master like this.

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    25

    Thanks for your experienced advice. The bank finished their investigation after 60 days but won't tell us anything. We will try to get a response again after we obtain Guardianship. Meanwhile, we informed HKMA and will let them apply pressure to the bank for a while. Will hold the press as the nuclear option if all else fails. Then I suppose it will just be for revenge.


  7. #27

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    薄扶林
    Posts
    47,963

    @jeffrc - How are things progressing with your case? Care to update us?


  8. #28

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    25

    We filed a complaint with the HKMA, and they opened an investigation. Phone interviewed us for 2 1/2 hours, and we sent them all of our bank documents. Bank then sent us a letter saying they need another 30 days to reply to our complaint to the HKMA (after their already taken 60 days). Most likely, they will ask for another 30 days, and then refuse to talk to us until we get legal authority from the courts. But I will be a patient man with a long memory.

    shri, hullexile and LEON108 like this.

  9. #29

    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    25

    The bank called me out of the blue, talking about compensation. HKMA must be putting the screws to them. Any suggestions on what we should ask for? They proposed unwinding all the trades to the date that the doctor wrote the letter saying my father has dementia. The churning started about four months before that. Also, profit/loss then depends on market performance, and the criminal element is really only the draining of the load fees for buying and selling funds.The bank is not yet providing us any real information about the account (like the dollar amount of compensation), but already want us to agree to the proposal!


  10. #30

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    薄扶林
    Posts
    47,963

    Tell them you're hard of hearing and better to email / fax / mail you the terms and conditions so you can study them.

    Never agree to any random shit over the phone.