Rant alert: HSBC to Swissquote Lux Transfer

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Before we get started, this post is long and it's a rant. So you have been warned.

The TL;DR summary is that can't seem to transfer money from HSBC HK to Swissquote Luxembourg.

As some of you know one of the brokerages we use was Internaxx in Luxembourg. This was all fine, and we were able to transfer USD from HSBC HK to Internaxx no problem.

Swissquote bought Internaxx earlier this year and its now called Swissquote Bank Europe (Swissquote Lu). Swissquote also has a brokerage operation in Switzerland, but they operate separately.

With the change from Internaxx to Swissquote Lu the bank transfer details and SWIFT code details changed. This is where things went pear shaped.

We set up the transfer details via HSBC's online transfer section and seemed to be fine, the SWIFT code was recognised. However we made a transfer and it got rejected on the basis that there was no correspondent bank details. Had to pay a fee for the rejected transfer of about USD100.

After a lot of back and forth between HSBC and Swissquote Lu I was told the following from Swissquote Lu:

"You might also want to inform any bank from which you are planning to send funds that we have informed all SWIFT Networks on 2 occasions (18/05- MT074 and 19/05-MT670&671) with the change of name, change of BIC and change of SSI (Standard Settlement Instructions). You might also want to forward our standard settlement instructions (attached to this email) to your bank, however please don't use these details by yourself. They are only for your bank to make sure that the cash transfer will route through the correct correspondent banks."

Swissquote Lu provided me with full correspondent bank account details which they asked me to forward onto HSBC. HSBC refused to accept them saying that I had to put the information in myself and also stated the following:

"If you would like to make a fresh USD TT, please refer to the beneficiary's bank and correspondence bank's information provided by the beneficiary's bank. When you place a new TT instruction, you can specify the correspondence bank's information under 'Message to recipient bank' field.

I would like to explain that our overseas payment instructions sent by SWIFT MT103. I refer to the provided messages, if you would like to make a TT to the beneficiary's bank again, please also contact the beneficiary's bank to confirm whether they can receive TT instruction via MT103. If MT103 can be accepted, please further confirm their USD correspondence bank to receive USD TT. However, if they are unable to accept MT103, I am afraid that it is not feasible to make a TT to the beneficiary's bank."

Swissquote Lu confirmed that they accept TT instructions via MT103, which Swissquote confirmed they did. HSBC further went on to say the following:

Since we have limited information about the routing of the overseas transfer. May I know if the payee bank need the fix inter bank to receive the money? I could understand your concern. As the information we have, when the transaction is made by us, we will use the information which is provided by customers to submit the instruction.Maybe you could ask the payee bank which information is necessary for receiving money from us."

Swissquote then provided me with more updated correspondent bank details, which again HSBC said that I had to figure out myself.

HSBC's international transfer form doesn't show or allow you to show correspondent bank account information, which is very much annoying. I was however able to include the correspondent bank details in the "Message to Payee" information where I put in the correspondent bank address and account number. In the section "Message to payee's bank" I included the correspondent bank SWIFT code.

I sent a copy of the transfer details to Swissquote Lu and they confirmed the information was correct.

I followed up about 5 days after they confirmed the details were correct. Swissquote stated the following:

"The funds have been received, however, the beneficiary has been quoted as Swissquote and not your own name.

We have contacted HSBC to confirm and await a response. If we do not get a response in the next few days, the funds will be returned to them.

If this happens and you wish to re-send the funds to us, please ask HSBC to use your name in field 59 of the SWIFT instruction. This is an absolute necessity."

After about 2 months of back and forth the money FINALLY got through.

I then tried to do another transfer earlier this month based on the previous details I had. Unfortunately the transfer hasn't gone through AGAIN. HSBC at their end say the transfer has gone through and Swissquote Lu say they haven't received it yet.

Swissquote are saying I need to follow up with HSBC and HSBC are saying I need to follow up with Swissquote so I'm stuck in an infinite loop from hell again.

This is what Swissquote says:

"Please let me reassure you that following the change to Swissquote nothing has really changed apart from the name of our Bank and the platform (including the payment details of our clients).

The things that have lately and currently influenced the situation much more are the recent stricten regulations, the current pandemic and without wanting to put a blame or discredit on another Bank the fact that HSBC (understandably due to the same reasons) has seen a lot of issues, delays rejections with their international payment services over months now.

Finally please note that our Bank is on the Receiving side and so we cannot influence the speed of a transfer or influence a rejection because it was wrongly instructed or the delay caused by a Correspondent / Intermediary Bank in the chain."

"Also we would like to reassure you that the funds have not vanished but they have to be stuck with a Correspondent or Intermediary Bank in the chain (as HSBC claims that the funds are not with them and our Bank can confirm that funds are not with us either). The normal practice (set by the EU legislation, Apacs and other foreign legislation) in a situation like yours is that the Sending Bank is under the obligation to start an investigation and to trace the funds."

I have been trying to correspond with both Swissquote and HSBC for the past week or so but neither response via email / messaging and its been impossible to get hold of them via phone (for clarification this is with my wife's Swissquote and HSBC accounts and she isn't HSBC premier. She refuses to upgrade to HSBC premier or change bank accounts, so that's a whole other conversation but not for this time).

I should also add I / my wife has never had an issue with doing an international bank transfer with HSBC before and overall their fees for international TT is reasonable (not the cheapest, but also not the most expensive).

So at the moment I am totally frustrated at what to do. Each bank is blaming the other and the money remains stuck.

I understand we can ask HSBC to run a trace on the money but this will cost around USD100 and will take a few weeks.

Anyway, rant over. Any suggestions on this?

[RobRoy]

Yes clear suggestion, change bank!

Clearly you need different bank accounts for different purposes. Maybe generally shitty SCB outshines HSBC in this area?

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Yes clear suggestion, change bank!

Clearly you need different bank accounts for different purposes. Maybe generally shitty SCB outshines HSBC in this area?

Thanks, have updated the post to clarify a few things.

Will probably look to change brokerage, changing bank is opening up pandora's box and not something I want to go down.

[huja]

Jesus, what a fucking nightmare. $100us penalty that is essentially a systems breakdown on their part?! Harsh.

[emx]

If it is this hard to get funds into Swissquote, image how hard it will be to get them out.

[GentleGeorge]

HSBC are generally shot and incompetent, but it also seems like a mistake for Swiss quite to have changed their details on takeover which unsurprisingly caused problems.

Could you use an intermediate broker (say IB or TransferWise) who has a bank in HK to remove that pain point? Transfer HKD to them, flip to USD on their platform (both are cheap) and transfer to Swiss quite from them? Avoids the TT fee and both are specialists at international payments?

I could mention WU as well. Historically I recall their fees were through the roof, but last time I glanced at them things seemed to have improved significantly.

[foxwendal]

That sucks. FWIW, I've been able to send USD to Swissquote Lux just fine from HK without the need to provide any correspondent bank dets even. Seems like it's probably an HSBC thing.

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Thanks for the replies. Responding to some of the comments:

- Ironically I think it will be easier to get money out of Swissquote as they probably have no problem recognising HSBC's IBAN codes (sorry in OP should have said IBAN codes rather than SWIFT codes).

- Via Trasnferwise is for sure an option. They do allow USD to USD transfers but you have to have this set up manually. You then have to route the USD to their account in the UK (and they will charge extra for this, on top of the charges incurred by HSBC for the international TT). The reason the money is already in USD is that we had converted it via IB already. Wife and me don't have joint accounts mainly due to IHT concerns at my end. To do the IB route for her, she would have to open an IB account and with her we try and avoid the number of accounts to open (and don't want to go down that discussion here).

- I personally think both Swissquote and HSBC are equally at fault here. Swissquote sells and markets itself as an expat brokerage. This means it should expect that many people from different parts of the world will use it. By changing their banking details and not making sure that these were updated with counterparties just makes it harder for their customers to deal with them. They then throw technical banking jargon to their customers to get them to sort it out with their counterparty banks rather than really helping out. On HSBC's side they really needed up update their backend on this. Swissquote notified the relevant settlement bodies and this information should be dealt with by HSBC. But as we all know HSBC are a law unto themselves and sometimes the norms of banking don't apply to them.

- The reality is that initially when Swissquote updated its systems it caused problems with several banks, not just HSBC. This was frankly poor form on the part of Swissquote. Yes they don't control their counterparty banks, but as an expat brokerage it should have been a lot more proactive. Seems now though that apart from HSBC most of the problems with other banks have been ironed out.

- Seems like we will need to make a manual enquiry with HSBC who charge HKD250 and then if the funds get returned there will be an additional USD100 charge. For a bank that claims is going all online there is still so much manual involvement by them. Also for reference even though HSBC's international TT fees have dropped to HKD50, for this one, because I included additional messages, we got charged HKD100 (because HSBC haven't updated their backend systems).

- Going forward the option is not to use Swissquote again (probably most likely option) or change banks for international transfers for my wife (unlikely option). We do have other brokerage options, so its not like we completely rely on Swissquote for trading.

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Original Post Deleted

Yes, from an HK entity bank.

Thanks for the info re HKMA will need to go digging as to why following up with them. Will WA you later today.

[RobRoy]

This is a good point actually, involve HKMA. The magical words are: "I want to make an official complaint"

If you just complain nothing will happen, i.e. they can ignore you. But if you in writing use the magical words above, that creates a chain which they have to report to HKMA how they solved. You will get a MUCH better follow-up on your case.

Sorry that I didn't think of advising you this directly.