Well I DO work for a management consultant, and have significant input into our hiring process here in HK, and would find anyone who rises to PDLM's comments so easily questionable as a hire. While he can be a pendant, anyone who thinks that insulting people who are trying to help them on an online forum makes them cool has a rude awakening in the real world. In the real world you are nothing until you prove yourself; and proving yourself involves native standard English at minimum, even in HK. We have huge numbers of arrogant tossers who write in expecting to get a well paid job with huge perks based on zero experience and a belief the world owes them a living. Give me the quieter applicant who did volunteer work at university, speaks 3 languages and is capable of stringing a sentence together coherently and shows SOME evidence that they are capable of listening to advice from those older and wiser any day.
Last edited by MovingIn07; 16-03-2010 at 10:57 AM.
While I'm not sure that I want to wear PDLM around my neck, he certainly can be a pedant, and as a technical translator / interpreter I'm happy to tar myself with the same brush
I also willingly confess to having been born in the 1950s, horror, shock ...
STILL, "westernised" young people planning to come and work in Hong Kong need to realise that business manners here are a lot more formal/ "classist" than in some other countries. For instance, even strictly in house, I am expected to address the high-flying gen-x generalist boss as "sir" or "doctor" while he refers to me by my first name. Yes, it does bug the cr*p out of me, but I'll survive and the job won't last forever.
There was another extended thread not so long ago which mentioned the need to abandon a lot of slang expressions when working with people of other cultures and generations. So true!!
Amen to that.
As opposed to writing them off and trying desperately to hang on to the title of Lil Miss Smarty-Pants such as that which we have witnessed from neilp.
F.A.O. micci888: I would love to be the fly on the wall if your nerve/temperament is ever tested in an interview by somebody higher up in the food chain. doG help you.
Agreed but I must admit I read all the posts and had a hard time not spitting out the coffee.
Didn't PDLM once write that his name here means something like People Don't Like Me?
I am really torn on this language issue and in a forum don't much worry about how people write as I too make errors from not reading stuff over and typing fast.
There are some jobs where writing is far less required such as actuaries and some other financial or IT jobs but definitely management consulting needs superior oral and written skill sets.
There is also a generational issue here too. I am a stickler for client reports and I go nuts if I find errors in a draft that to me result from lack of reading the document for editing purposes versus a quick scan like we do in internet forums to see if we got it right. Some of the younger folks seem to think that if someone else is reading the draft then let them find the errors which to me is inexcusable.
While teaching college management and organization behavior classes over 13 years at night back in Canada and these were mostly non-university grads I found no issues with their work as I gave them an out. I'd tell them that any typed assignments must be proof read.
If I got the feeling that I was the first person to have read their paper as error after error popped up, I'd mark them down. These were all working managers/staff and were busy. I didn't mind if they made minor edits in their own writing as they are were clear and understandable. I kept my word and never deducted marks for minor hand written edits. As part timers they'd not have access to college printers and had to rush from work to get to class and eat ahead of time. It worked. I got them to think about the edit process and it met my goal as I wanted to read and focus on their ideas and insights and not get distracted by minor errors.
Again, my training in writing was in the old days when managers sent memos and reports back for minor errors. It didn't happen often or you'd be gone! We had one ex-Brit VP who would red circle errors in memos and send stuff back for fixing! When one of his senior managers quit his managers and staff gave him a nicely mounted and framed memo he had sent that the VP had red circled and sent back.
It was one of my funniest memories at the firm. It was funny as it was on our best corporate letterhead being sent outside but needed to be reviewed for policy first. The presentation was so funny I thought the President was going to wet his pants. Actually that VP was there too and laughed but just a bit. It was not much of a career boost for the presenter as he found himself transferred over to me shortly thereafter.
My point is that the likes of PDLM no doubt are from my era.
I am not sure where the world is heading on these issues but it seems to me that the younger generation workers must make more of an effort to proof read their work and possibly reduce the use of cyber talk phrases and symbols. As China becomes a major economic super power more and more we will do business in English where those writing on the other side will have grammar skills that don't meet the highest standards some might want or expect. I have more empathy for those non native English folks as most of us are devoid of any skill in their language and we are here in HK.
Last edited by Football16; 16-03-2010 at 04:19 PM.
I frequently make minor mistakes in posts - some of which can be quite amusing (as in the 'pendant' PDLM )... but what really irks me is how people react to those things being pointed out.
Most sensible folks would laugh - or, where PDLM points out huge problems in a post for an English teacher or would-be Management Consultant - sit back and perhaps think about whether there is a real underlying issue here or whether they were just typing in a hurry .... only the poster knows - but to get pissed off and vitriolic - that's just immature.
Like Football, we will send back reports for the tiniest error. We aim to send things out perfect and I am not a proof-reader - I expect our analysts to have done that before it gets to me! I will teach our juniors how to express themselves better, I will criticise their presentations if they give one, to explain how to improve and ditto any written document or spreadsheet I get. It's called ON THE JOB LEARNING and the core of how training works in my organisation. So, obviously, we are not going to hire anyone who gives a hint of being unable to listen or who might object to constructive criticism .... THAT's the point neilp should be taking away from this discussion. Not necessarily that PDLM is a pedant (he is, probably a pendant too for all I know!) but that everywhere is an opportunity to learn, even if the medium of instruction is irritating.