Hong Kong vs Seoul vs Tokyo

[TheBrit]

.. Visa shouldn't be an issue

What makes you say that?

[DimSumBond]

There isn’t a lot of information out there with regards to Korea that isn’t all glowing. Korea’s economy is driven by the fact that it’s the preferred location of choice for the many companies that have large facilities there. Pollution is a major major issue.

There is also a strong bullying/ isolation culture that runs deep. This isn’t so different from Chinese culture, but it makes office culture that much more difficult. Work hours are the longest in the world. Productivity is extremely low for white collar roles. The finance sector has always struggled to connect globally and will he largely domestic focused. Foreign companies are tied up in local JVs, mich like China, so not speaking Korean will be a significant set back both professionally and personally. Housing is also a major issue. Construction quality is low and noise from neighbors has resulted in numerous murders over the years. This lack of insulation also means very cold indoor temperatures in winter, hot indoor temperatures in summer and massive build up of mold.

The Koreans have labeled their country as “Hell Korea” and they will passively make sure anyone who doesn’t share the same sentiment joins them to ensure collective harmony.

The local people are interesting and will get in under your skin. Internet trolling is so extreme there that they have a real name act to ensure no online posts are anonymous. They invented the cancel culture And this speaks volumes about their leadership in all things internet related. Food quality is abysmally low and you will struggle to find delicious foods and quality ingredients as a foreigner. Prices for fruits, meats, rice and eggs are very very high. These prices likely explain why males there wear shoe lifts to keep up with their reputation as being the tallest people in Asia! Had a good laugh at this too.

Taipei has a very small feel. Living costs are low, but I would rate this under Seoul. Career opps would be similar, but the people are more polite.

I recommend Tokyo by a mile. At least you will have personal space and polite people. Work culture aside, Tokyo is truly global, noise won’t be an issue like in Korea and you won’t be getting trolled in real life by the locals. Pay is also very high as is the tax rate. Japanese is also not mandatory to get by and social life is better.

[mostexcellent]

Just a few random thoughts having lived in both HK and Korea

I love Korea. It's been an experience to see a society with very different values than I'm accustomed to and the people IMO are very warm and respectful. A stark contrast I notice with HK's indifference/coldness every time I travel between them.

But the foreigners as second class citizen thing mentioned about Japan also is alive and well in Korea. Things like "no foreigners allowed" as an explicit policy for bars, clubs, spas is not uncommon - though certainly not a norm.

Dealing with Korean bureaucracy and government will be very challenging if you don't have a Korean partner to assist with it. IMO average English ability is even worse than Japan

Tax considerations are very different in Korea than in HK or any western setting. I believe similar to Japan though, where much of these systems were adopted from. Transfers between spouses are subjected to gift taxes for example.

The Korean expat circles are also less finance and white collar skewed as HK and Tokyo are. The average western foreigner in Korea is an English teacher or US military. Perhaps a positive thing for the culture, but there will be less deference given to you as Western expat than you're probably accustomed to in HK (knowingly or not) where Westerners are respected and assumed to be upper middle class in HK. For HK, I've always considered that a mental holdover from colonial era.

As a culture, Korea is fascinating and intense. It's been said, it speaks volumes that Korea was able to take communism further than Stalin could (with NK) and was able to out-Confucian even the Chinese (with the Joseon era). The Confucian holdover permeates a lot of daily life in hierarchy norms, gender norms, priority given to informal/unspoken values over strict adherence to contract/law, and also a strong sense of community where to some it's refreshing people actually give a damn about them and for others it's insufferably stifling and nosy

On gender norms, it may be difficult for Western women to accept the deep conservatism that is still alive and well in Korean culture. It's perhaps 1950s post-war white picket fence American mentality in a modern Asian setting.

The image and beauty pressures here are unlike anywhere else, especially for women, and it is not just a matter of vanity, but considered a matter of ettiquette. It's common for example that women who don't put on make up to go out are seen as being rude to the company they're meeting, as if they didn't deserve putting in the effort.

On the whole, I think HK is expat easy. Korea will undoubtedly not be IMO but could very well be the adventure you're after.

[mostexcellent]

As a place to consider buying a home and establishing new roots as a complete outsider though, Korea probably ain’t it

[Cornmeal]

There isn’t a lot of information out there with regards to Korea that isn’t all glowing. Korea’s economy is driven by the fact that it’s the preferred location of choice for the many companies that have large facilities there. Pollution is a major major issue.

There is also a strong bullying/ isolation culture that runs deep. This isn’t so different from Chinese culture, but it makes office culture that much more difficult. Work hours are the longest in the world. Productivity is extremely low for white collar roles. The finance sector has always struggled to connect globally and will he largely domestic focused. Foreign companies are tied up in local JVs, mich like China, so not speaking Korean will be a significant set back both professionally and personally. Housing is also a major issue. Construction quality is low and noise from neighbors has resulted in numerous murders over the years. This lack of insulation also means very cold indoor temperatures in winter, hot indoor temperatures in summer and massive build up of mold.

The Koreans have labeled their country as “Hell Korea” and they will passively make sure anyone who doesn’t share the same sentiment joins them to ensure collective harmony.

The local people are interesting and will get in under your skin. Internet trolling is so extreme there that they have a real name act to ensure no online posts are anonymous. They invented the cancel culture And this speaks volumes about their leadership in all things internet related. Food quality is abysmally low and you will struggle to find delicious foods and quality ingredients as a foreigner. Prices for fruits, meats, rice and eggs are very very high. These prices likely explain why males there wear shoe lifts to keep up with their reputation as being the tallest people in Asia! Had a good laugh at this too.

Taipei has a very small feel. Living costs are low, but I would rate this under Seoul. Career opps would be similar, but the people are more polite.

I recommend Tokyo by a mile. At least you will have personal space and polite people. Work culture aside, Tokyo is truly global, noise won’t be an issue like in Korea and you won’t be getting trolled in real life by the locals. Pay is also very high as is the tax rate. Japanese is also not mandatory to get by and social life is better.

How long did you live in Korea? Must have been a while and you must be poor at adapting to another culture to have to amassed such a massive chip on your shoulder.

Your post is full of lies and half truths and comes off as very bitter and jaded.

-Korea has Costco, easy to find lots of stuff at reasonable prices, plus expat shops online
-quality and taste of food is much better than HK
-certain fruits are pricier but groceries overall are less than here, things like peppers and onions are cheap, supermarkets are large, clean and spacious not constantly in each other's way, aisles used for shopping not for storage!
-never had a rotten egg before living in HK
-easy to go to Home plus, for instance, and get almost everything you'd need to start your place, no waiting 2 weeks for ikea to order a queen size mattress, things are acutally in stock
-you don't have to pay $12USD+ for a drink at a bar or resto (yes some clubs don't want forigners-ie. soldiers, they've a bad reputation, but they're not the places the OP would care to go)
-taxis are new and take multiple forms of electronic payments, drivers are a bit nuts but usually friendly and talkative (how I practiced my Korean)
-mold is literally everywhere in HK, all over the outsides of buildings, in the AC, I've lived in a few small walk ups in Korea all built better than my current "new" village house, yes no insulation in some places but you do have "ondol" floor heating,
-the millennials have coined the term "Hell Joseon" a critique of modern Korea's social economic issues, like Japan the work culture is very driven, the cushy jobs for life disappeared and options limited for some new grads
-despite this "hell" the arts scene has blossomed over the last decade, HK pales in comparison to the art galleries and museums of Seoul and even smaller Korean cities half its size,
-pace of change there is fast, they make things and it doesn't take them 3 years to build a pedestrian bridge or fix a few water lines, 6 years and 3 brand new subway lines, a huge new tunnels through mountains along with expressways, massive cluster of high end apts 50+ story added in one city. HK, the ground breaking has just begun in that time.

Korea is intense but also wonderful and rewarding to those with an open mind.

[DimSumBond]

How long did you live in Korea? Must have been a while and you must be poor at adapting to another culture to have to amassed such a massive chip on your shoulder.

Your post is full of lies and half truths and comes off as very bitter and jaded.

-Korea has Costco, easy to find lots of stuff at reasonable prices, plus expat shops online
-quality and taste of food is much better than HK
-certain fruits are pricier but groceries overall are less than here, things like peppers and onions are cheap, supermarkets are large, clean and spacious not constantly in each other's way, aisles used for shopping not for storage!
-never had a rotten egg before living in HK
-easy to go to Home plus, for instance, and get almost everything you'd need to start your place, no waiting 2 weeks for ikea to order a queen size mattress, things are acutally in stock
-you don't have to pay $12USD+ for a drink at a bar or resto (yes some clubs don't want forigners-ie. soldiers, they've a bad reputation, but they're not the places the OP would care to go)
-taxis are new and take multiple forms of electronic payments, drivers are a bit nuts but usually friendly and talkative (how I practiced my Korean)
-mold is literally everywhere in HK, all over the outsides of buildings, in the AC, I've lived in a few small walk ups in Korea all built better than my current "new" village house, yes no insulation in some places but you do have "ondol" floor heating,
-the millennials have coined the term "Hell Joseon" a critique of modern Korea's social economic issues, like Japan the work culture is very driven, the cushy jobs for life disappeared and options limited for some new grads
-despite this "hell" the arts scene has blossomed over the last decade, HK pales in comparison to the art galleries and museums of Seoul and even smaller Korean cities half its size,
-pace of change there is fast, they make things and it doesn't take them 3 years to build a pedestrian bridge or fix a few water lines, 6 years and 3 brand new subway lines, a huge new tunnels through mountains along with expressways, massive cluster of high end apts 50+ story added in one city. HK, the ground breaking has just begun in that time.

Korea is intense but also wonderful and rewarding to those with an open mind.

im sorry for your low standards. No chip on my shoulder. Just don’t want to spread lies to the OP. Remember, we should be helpful rather than misleading them.

[Cornmeal]

im sorry for your low standards. No chip on my shoulder. Just don’t want to spread lies to the OP. Remember, we should be helpful rather than misleading them.

Sorry, HK has some of the lowest standards I've encounterd. But spouting off a long list of complaints about a place without qualifying them with examples or speaking to your actual experience is hardly helpful.

[DimSumBond]

Sorry, HK has some of the lowest standards I've encounterd. But spouting off a long list of complaints about a place without qualifying them with examples or speaking to your actual experience is hardly helpful.

Thanks for confirming what I wrote about the lack of less than glowing views on Korea. Perhaps my views can help the OP. I’m not sure that I’d trust your’s since you don’t mention that Home Plus
stocks 99% domestically produced products. Unknown to most, including locals, is that the foreign brands they pay a premium for are mostly local license produced. Not sure if this matters to you, but to me I take comfort in eating my favorite foods and this is not possible in Korea. At least in HK, the OP can enjoy eating actual imported foreign foods.

Also, I don’t know where you’ve lived in HK, but mold in Korea is at a totally different level. and let’s throw in poor construction which means constant sounds all through the night. Construction noise is also an issue too. I’d rather help the OP, and the OP’s loved ones, not have any respiratory health issues. And one must never forget how bad the pollution levels are in Korea. HK is pretty darn clean in comparison.

[Cornmeal]

Thanks for confirming what I wrote about the lack of less than glowing views on Korea. Perhaps my views can help the OP. I’m not sure that I’d trust your’s since you don’t mention that Home Plus and
stocks 99% domestically produced products with the majority of its foreign stock being local license produced. At least in HK, the OP can enjoy eating foreign foods. And I don’t know where you’ve lived in HK, but mold in Korea is at a totally different level. I’d rather help the OP, and the OP’s loved ones, not have any respiratory health issues. And one must never forget how bad the pollution levels are in Korea. HK is pretty darn clean in comparison.

When and how long did you live there?

All my opinions are backed up with examples, and my position/relationship with these places clearly stated unlike yours and I haven't shared any false or misleading info. Homeplus is part owned by Tesco and you can find some foreign stuff but if not go to Costco or online, I was speaking of homewares.
Does it have as much imported stuff as HK? No, but you can find all the foods you need. Anyway here is actual info which folks can vet for themselves:

https://10mag.com/english-websites-f...ping-in-korea/

https://blog.southofseoul.net/index....very-in-korea/

https://expatguidekorea.com/article/...-in-korea.html

https://www.expatarrivals.com/asia-p...ng-south-korea

But if you stick to online only you'd miss the funny gesturing of the parking lot greeters at the big box stores



Korea is a very protectionist market which does limit some choices to the "ChaeBol", but this does have its upsides like lightening fast internet and great service; call before 11am and they will show up same day and install. Have an issue with an appliance from one of the big manufactures? Same deal, they'll come to your home for FREE and give you an estimate for repairs. Buy a large appliance, FREE delivery and they cart off your old one.

Do tell us what the black stuff growing in/on all the buildings here is? Look inside my AC when moving in (5 year old house), mold, rooftop mold, I'm allergic to the stuff and find it worse here and why not, the year round humidity is perfect for cultivating it. Oh, what's that dripping on my head? Is it rain? No, it's a moldy antiquated wall mounted AC that no one can be bothered to remedy.

Pollution? Yes, ATM very bad as the winds sweep across eastern China from the Gobi carrying all sorts of nasty stuff, called "Hwang Sa" or Yellow Dust. Rest of the year similar or slightly worse than HK if we're talking Seoul. Japan certainly wins with AQ.

I know plenty of expats who were there before me and are still there and enjoy it, also know others who tired of the lifestyle and frenzied pace of the city after years of living there and left (myself included). Sorry I'm not as bitter and negative about the place as you are, it's great for some, OK for a few, no picnic for others (friend left after 3 months = culture shock) but it's still not the grim unsubstantiated picture you painted either.

[Cornmeal]

Just a few random thoughts having lived in both HK and Korea

I love Korea. It's been an experience to see a society with very different values than I'm accustomed to and the people IMO are very warm and respectful. A stark contrast I notice with HK's indifference/coldness every time I travel between them.

But the foreigners as second class citizen thing mentioned about Japan also is alive and well in Korea. Things like "no foreigners allowed" as an explicit policy for bars, clubs, spas is not uncommon - though certainly not a norm.

Dealing with Korean bureaucracy and government will be very challenging if you don't have a Korean partner to assist with it. IMO average English ability is even worse than Japan

Tax considerations are very different in Korea than in HK or any western setting. I believe similar to Japan though, where much of these systems were adopted from. Transfers between spouses are subjected to gift taxes for example.

The Korean expat circles are also less finance and white collar skewed as HK and Tokyo are. The average western foreigner in Korea is an English teacher or US military. Perhaps a positive thing for the culture, but there will be less deference given to you as Western expat than you're probably accustomed to in HK (knowingly or not) where Westerners are respected and assumed to be upper middle class in HK. For HK, I've always considered that a mental holdover from colonial era.

As a culture, Korea is fascinating and intense. It's been said, it speaks volumes that Korea was able to take communism further than Stalin could (with NK) and was able to out-Confucian even the Chinese (with the Joseon era). The Confucian holdover permeates a lot of daily life in hierarchy norms, gender norms, priority given to informal/unspoken values over strict adherence to contract/law, and also a strong sense of community where to some it's refreshing people actually give a damn about them and for others it's insufferably stifling and nosy

On gender norms, it may be difficult for Western women to accept the deep conservatism that is still alive and well in Korean culture. It's perhaps 1950s post-war white picket fence American mentality in a modern Asian setting.

The image and beauty pressures here are unlike anywhere else, especially for women, and it is not just a matter of vanity, but considered a matter of ettiquette. It's common for example that women who don't put on make up to go out are seen as being rude to the company they're meeting, as if they didn't deserve putting in the effort.

On the whole, I think HK is expat easy. Korea will undoubtedly not be IMO but could very well be the adventure you're after.

Aside from immigration, who were awful, I found municipal bureaucracy to be decent but yes, you need to speak Korean to get things done efficiently.

While I think status of women in society is somewhat generational, violence against women was very real when I lived there. Best to avoid middle aged drunks at night whether you're a man or a woman.

The beauty thing has only intensified saw way more plastic surgery clinics in 2019 than there used to be.

The age hierarchy is annoying but you can find friends who don't take it too seriously, and foreigners are often exempted from its complexities but others will argue to no end about being disrespected by someone born one year later than them!

I only ever recall seeing "locals only" at dance clubs which was a good thing as they were terrible with overpriced drinks and cover charges, but they were mainly for keeping out US soldiers who had/have a reputation for starting fights or not back down from instigators. But every white person is assumed to "American", which is annoying.

One bonus I forgot to mention is that Cantonese and Korean share a ton of cognates, so if you know your numbers in HK you'll at least have that going for you, very similar with slight pronunciation differences.

10: ship=sup, 100: baek=baak,1k: chun=chin, 10k: man=man, the rest are similar except for 0: yeong=ling, 1: il=yat, 4: sa=sae, 5: oh=ngh, 6: yuk=luk and Koreans drop the zero in numbers like 106: baek-yuk = yat-baak-ling-luk/yat-ling-luk