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Occupy Central? Send in the PLA

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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by garycyk:
    If they other Mainland people see HK have democracy , they will make the same request
    What? You think Chinese people don't know what democracy is about?

  2. #22

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    You are mixing up a lot of stuff in my post. Nowhere have I suggested that HK needs to put PLA on the streets as it would be the wrong thing to do and not likely ever needed. You mix up training for a role vs doing it.

    My personal beliefs in these things is that a show of force can do more to bring on violence than to prevent it and you don't want your military doing law enforcement or they will make things worse.

    I don't even have to look up how many times that the US military and National Guard have been in urban riots - Watts, Detroit in the late 60s etc etc. etc. They do come under law enforcement control BUT once out they have proven to do their own thing.

    The 1992 Rodney King in Los Angeles riots ONLY ended after the Governor called in the National Guard.

    Maybe pictures can make this clearer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTxjQPf9vk

    I never suggested that they'd call out the PLA. HK Police do fine. That would be quite stupid to do that without HK being in dire circumstances are some terrorists attacking. But to think they wouldn't train troops to work in urban areas is nonsensical. You don't want untrained military doing crowd control.

    You are wrong on the Civil Assistance Plan for US and Canada- dead wrong unless you think our Prime Minister is wrong and he did the deal.

    You are wrong on the National Guard - plain dead wrong.

    What part of this are you and DeletedUser missing? That twat loves to take issue with any post of mine. Not sure what you are missing.

    These are the first two paragraphs from the National Guard website.

    The National Guard is the oldest military branch.

    The National Guard's roots date back to 1636, when colonial militias made up of ordinary citizens would put down their plows and pick up weapons to protect families and towns from hostile attacks. Today, Citizen-Soldiers® hold civilian jobs or attend college while maintaining their military training part time, always ready to defend the American way of life in the event of an emergency.

    Our unique dual mission: serving both community and country.

    The National Guard serves both state and federal governments. While the Guard originally focused on protecting local communities, it eventually grew into a force that complements the Active Duty Army when help is needed anywhere in the world. The biggest difference compared to other branches is that while Guard units are combat-trained and can be deployed overseas, they are just as likely to serve in their home communities.
    And for the fourth of July 2013 in Boston comes the National Guard:

    http://www.wbur.org/2013/07/03/july-...oston-security

    There will also be more federal officers, National Guard troops, local police and MBTA officers. Police have also set up a tip line so people can send anonymous text messages to law enforcement about anything suspicious.
    Last edited by Football16; 08-07-2013 at 12:49 PM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by garycyk:
    If they other Mainland people see HK have democracy , they will make the same request
    Request all they like, it won't happen without an extremely bloody uprising/ civil war that will probably tear up China. Also why there isn't a cat in hell's chance of HK being granted universal suffrage, why would they? It's only going to be more hassle when they take it away again as the border comes down.
    INXS and Watercooler like this.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    You are mixing up a lot of stuff in my post. Nowhere have I suggested that HK needs to put PLA on the streets as it would be the wrong thing to do and not likely ever needed. You mix up training for a role vs doing it.

    My personal beliefs in these things is that a show of force can do more to bring on violence than to prevent it and you don't want your military doing law enforcement or they will make things worse.

    I don't even have to look up how many times that the US military and National Guard have been in urban riots - Watts, Detroit in the late 60s etc etc. etc. They do come under law enforcement control BUT once out they have proven to do their own thing.


    The 1992 Rodney King in Los Angeles riots ONLY ended after the Governor called in the National Guard.

    Maybe pictures can make this clearer:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTxjQPf9vk

    I never suggested that they'd call out the PLA. HK Police do fine. That would be quite stupid to do that without HK being in dire circumstances are some terrorists attacking. But to think they wouldn't train troops to work in urban areas is nonsensical. You don't want untrained military doing crowd control.

    You are wrong on the Civil Assistance Plan for US and Canada- dead wrong unless you think our Prime Minister is wrong and he did the deal.

    You are wrong on the National Guard - plain dead wrong.

    What part of this are you and DeletedUser missing? That twat loves to take issue with any post of mine. Not sure what you are missing.

    These are the first two paragraphs from the National Guard website.



    And for the fourth of July 2013 in Boston comes the National Guard:

    http://www.wbur.org/2013/07/03/july-...oston-security
    You are mistaken, (or in your term, "dead wrong" ), if you think the national guard is comparable to that of the PLA. The two are not the same. You are confusing apple with oranges. The national guard is a reserve militia, not the regular frontline fighting force. They aren't deployed in warzones unless there is deem to be a need for it (i.e. manpower shortage, rotation scheduling crunch etc). You will not see regular army members patrolling the streets of the US unless there is a real emergency and order to be deployed by the federal government.

    PLA is training with the Americans and Canadians?That doesn't mean they actually will be good at doing a job handling civil emergencies. The past record of the PLA dealing with civil disturbances isn't all that confidence-inspiring.

    What do I not get? Sorry, I never said the national guard was never deployed. I said it was deployed only situations deemded to be emergencies, by the federal gov or by the state, which they have, repeatedly. But the PLA has NEVER been deployed in Hong Kong. And I hope that remains the case. What part of my point about the PLA serving the party, not the country do you not get?
    Last edited by Watercooler; 08-07-2013 at 01:19 PM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watercooler:
    The national guard is a reserve militia, not the regular frontline fighting force. They aren't deployed in warzones unless there is deem to be a need for it (i.e. manpower shortage, rotation scheduling crunch etc).
    And yet about a third of US troops deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq have been National Guard members... That may have been true previously, but I don't think it is now.
    Lootoo, Watercooler and ouwen like this.

  6. #26

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    Yes, please send them in and instruct them to fire at will. Hongkongers love the Chicomm PLA just as much as the West Germans loved the troops of the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War.

    There is a good reason the PLA voluntarily kept a suspiciously low profile in the city since the handover... until recently. Their new strategy started a about a year ago to obviously counter the increasing democracy and colonial nostalgia movements. The locals are fed up already, just a notch more of their presence will unite them as never seen before.

    Some examples of the PLA's muscle show off that deeply offended the Hongkongers:
    Artillery manoeuvers next to residential areas in the NT all day and night. Excercise against a virtual Cantonese speaking enemy in a mockup Hong Kong downtown area. A complete Navy combat group passing through Victoria Harbour with armed soldiers standing on the deck pointing their rifles at the city. Low flying helicopters 24/7.


    Sent from my GT-I9100 using GeoClicks mobile app

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  7. #27

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    There is a huge difference between training and actually being dumb enough to deploy troops in urban areas.

    I cannot foresee the use of PLA in local protests unless violence shut down the city and people were being killed. The PRC aren't that dumb.

    To have them train in the event of such a occurrence always leaps those to be absolutely convinced that the show of force is to strike fear in locals hearts when the reality is that it actually is more likely to have the opposite effect.

    That is how protest movements grow and no doubt the PLA training has ADDED to the numbers coming out as the HK locals fear the future with China.

    The unrest on US campuses was led by radicals 300 or so who when their heads were bashed in or students shot like at Kent State by the National Guard, the numbers protesting soared to 10,000 or more. Why would it be different here? It wouldn't.

    But overriding the fear of being seen training in HK is the need for training I presume.

    They just copy what they learn other countries with vastly superior military forces are doing to prepare their troops like the USA.

    I am not advocating this stuff as I believe in the show of force makes MORE problems not less.

    http://publicintelligence.net/u-s-ar...aining-photos/
    U.S. Army Domestic Quick Reaction Force Riot Control Training Photos

    March 21, 2012 in Headline
    he following photos are from March and February of this year and were taken at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Washington. The first four photos from March depict riot control training for a “domestic quick reaction force” that would aid in civil disturbances.

    The second set of photos from February depict the 67th Military Police Company that typically mans the area’s Regional Correctional Facility attempting to quell riots among “restless prison inmates” that have created a disturbance.

    The photos are similar to a collection from May 2010 that depict several National Guard units from different parts of the U.S. quelling protesters in mock communities holding signs that say “Food Now”.

    A description of one of the events was posted to Facebook by the U.S. Army’s 5th Mobile Public Affairs Detachment:

    The Soldiers in a closed formation bang their batons in cadence against their shields as an angry mob approaches."
    Teams of Soldiers assigned to 3rd Squadron, 38th Cavalry Regiment, 201st Battlefield Surveillance Brigade conducted civil disturbance training here March 13.

    Soldiers with shields, batons and rifles pushed through and maintained a dominant stance against a mob of about 40 civilians. The riot escalated as the crowd began throwing snowballs, slurred profanity and made offensive gestures at the Soldiers. The more forceful members of the mob charged the Soldiers but were easily pushed back, as many often fell to the icy surface.

    The overall goal of riot control group (RCG) is to control the crowd using less than lethal force.


    All nations have to be prepared to protect their country and institutions.

    Here the PLA makes local HKers even more suspicious and I understand why.
    Last edited by Football16; 08-07-2013 at 02:38 PM.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gruntfuttock:
    And yet about a third of US troops deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq have been National Guard members... That may have been true previously, but I don't think it is now.
    I'm not surprised they were deployed given the pressure of the 10+ years of conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq, their frontline troops have to be rotated in and out of theater, they needs to be supported and where are you going to get a ready pool of backup? The national guard.

    But officially, the national guard is still considered a reserve force, they do all kind of stuff that the regular military do not do (or very seldom do). In any case, there must be an express order either by the fed or state level government to send in the national guard in situations deem to be an emergency, where the local level law enforcement authorities are overwhelmed, they can't just be deployed within the US whenever they like. So the general rule holds for western military to engage in combat overseas, although their reserve force may engage in civilian activities when the government deem it necessary.
    Last edited by Watercooler; 08-07-2013 at 03:07 PM.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    There is a huge difference between training and actually being dumb enough to deploy troops in urban areas.

    I cannot foresee the use of PLA in local protests unless violence shut down the city and people were being killed. The PRC aren't that dumb.

    To have them train in the event of such a occurrence always leaps those to be absolutely convinced that the show of force is to strike fear in locals hearts when the reality is that it actually is more likely to have the opposite effect.

    That is how protest movements grow and no doubt the PLA training has ADDED to the numbers coming out as the HK locals fear the future with China.

    The unrest on US campuses was led by radicals 300 or so who when their heads were bashed in or students shot like at Kent State by the National Guard, the numbers protesting soared to 10,000 or more. Why would it be different here? It wouldn't.

    But overriding the fear of being seen training in HK is the need for training I presume.

    They just copy what they learn other countries with vastly superior military forces are doing to prepare their troops like the USA.

    I am not advocating this stuff as I believe in the show of force makes MORE problems not less.





    All nations have to be prepared to protect their country and institutions.

    Here the PLA makes local HKers even more suspicious and I understand why.
    You never know what goes on in the minds of Beijing. From our perspective, it will be very dumb to deploy the PLA, but not necessarily from Beijing's perspective. Unless faced with an utter disaster with all it's forces overwhelmed and the government about to fall, the HKSAR will not likely ask for the PLA to be deployed. But the problem is, Beijing may have other ideas. They may preempt the SAR gov to deploy the PLA without the SAR gov asking for it. To what situation will the PLA be deem necessary to deploy may be different for Beijing than for Hong Kong. That is the underlying danger. Particularly when, unlike the national guard, the PLA is deploy as a blunt political instrument for political ends.
    Last edited by Watercooler; 08-07-2013 at 03:06 PM.
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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Watercooler:
    Half a million people were on the streets in 2003 and there was no violence.
    1/2 million people in the streets of HK is not a protest, that's just like every normal day in Central/TST/Mongkok

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