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June 4th - Lest we forget ...

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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderman:
    I've never really understood why such a fuss is made over Tiananmen. Too much b.s. from both sides.

    What is clear is that there was no massacre in the square at all and that the 'students' were not school kids.

    Lots of evidence that many unarmed PLA soldiers were lynched in the lead-up to the crackdown.

    So for me, not interested.
    You really don't have a clue , do you?
    Peter Mak and spode like this.

  2. #12

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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderman:
    I've never really understood why such a fuss is made over Tiananmen. Too much b.s. from both sides.

    What is clear is that there was no massacre in the square at all and that the 'students' were not school kids.

    Lots of evidence that many unarmed PLA soldiers were lynched in the lead-up to the crackdown.

    So for me, not interested.
    Is it really clear? Would love it if you could provide some credible evidence to back up your opinion.

  4. #14

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    Show me credible evidence that hundreds of students were massacred at Tiananmen Square...

    What was going on in the suburbs with pr-democracy workers was much more interesting but would have sold less papers...

    Not playing this game every year...do your own research...it's very easy and all the information is readily available including accounts from folks on the ground.


  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Enderman:
    Show me credible evidence that hundreds of students were massacred at Tiananmen Square...

    What was going on in the suburbs with pr-democracy workers was much more interesting but would have sold less papers...

    Not playing this game every year...do your own research...it's very easy and all the information is readily available including accounts from folks on the ground.
    Listen, you are the one denying it. The only one playing is you. Like you said the information is there, so to be a denier in the face of facts...
    bookblogger and spode like this.

  6. #16

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    If they were terrorists then I doubt Zhao Ziyang would come out and talk to them. And if nobody died, then what about the Tiananmen mothers?

    Of course, that the students were irrational stupid dreamers is obvious, asking for an end to corruption. LOL.

    East_coast and spode like this.

  7. #17

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    Actually, Enderman is correct about there not being a massacre on the square itself. Very few got killed on the square itself, the killing happened while the troops were advancing in to the city, in the streets surrounding the square and in the subsequent days when the troops arrested people. The army allowed the students in the square to leave voluntarily, after which they drove in with their tanks over their tents etc.

    FYI, I am not disputing in anyway that that a lot of people got killed, I am merely pointing out that the massacre did not happen on tianmen square and that the killing started actually already june 3. See e.g. wikipedia on it.


  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Claire ex-ax:
    I've forgotten so much shit over the years, but June 4 remains vivid.

    "So painful to remember, so difficult to forget..."
    1989 was an iconic year for world events....

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by henkka:
    Actually, Enderman is correct about there not being a massacre on the square itself.
    Yes, he is playing with semantics.
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  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by bookblogger:
    Yes, he is playing with semantics.
    Yes...I've been called a 'Tiananmen pedant' before. Google it, it's a real term.

    Anyway...you can call it a play on semantics all you like.

    The Tiananmen Square Massacre is described as the CCP killing 100s or even 1000s of students in Tiananmen Square. The fact is that there was no massacre at Tiananmen...the fighting happened a distance away form central Beijing and was between pro-democracy workers and the army. And yes, it was fighting...many soldiers were killed, molotov cocktails were thrown, photos exist of soldiers who had been hung and/or burnt to death.

    I am pro-democracy...I believe the CCP was wrong, etc... But, we have to be honest and stop bullshitting or we lose credibility.

    The whole Tiananmen narrative rests on the concept of three lies:

    1.) A massacre took place in Tiananmen Square.
    2.) The protestors who were massacred were students.
    3.) The protestors were peaceful.

    That's not a play on semantics, that's calling bullshit.

    We must hold ourselves to a higher standard.

    Think about how many people live in China. Think about many hear about the west's criticism of the CCP over Tiananmen...many of them know there was no such event...it's then very easy for them to believe that the deaths that took place were a reasonable effort to stop rioting...

    Also, consider this point...who were the students on the square? Whose children do you think get to go to university in Beijing? Especially in those days.

    Anyway, I know this is one of those taboo subjects...well I'm not going to be a bloody sheep. By the looks of things, the kids are getting bored of it too.