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"Community Dialogue" - Have you registered to have your 3.7 secs with Carrie?

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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by MandM!:
    Or she is doing it exactly as she should in the interests of her future career with Beijing. I don't expect China to move leaps and bounds in terms of politics. Having this townhall meeting is a good first step but seemed to have focused on blaming the past. If so, it makes it very difficult for Lam to come up with next steps. Hold another pointless meeting?
    From your violently pro-regime standpoint, what actual positives did you get from that "townhall meeting"?

    I didn't see any enagement from the unelected officials nor any actual recognition of the extent of "grassroots" dissatisfaction beyond stony faces.

    And what could Clam do, as the nominal/nominated head of HK government? For starters, she could simply announce that the government will start seeking ways to address the deep concerns Hongkongers have (let the CCP themselves deal with the outcry their secret dictates are causing if they block the promised electoral reforms!) and that she will order the "law enforcement" to cease using force or intimidation against the public unless it is in genuine self defence and...

    She might be dimly aware of the Five Demands which, if it needs pointing out, are all perfectly reasonable, legal and within the Chief Executive's power to pursue.

    That's what a representative of Hongkongers would do anyway.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by MandM!:
    Or she is doing it exactly as she should in the interests of her future career with Beijing. I don't expect China to move leaps and bounds in terms of politics. Having this townhall meeting is a good first step but seemed to have focused on blaming the past. If so, it makes it very difficult for Lam to come up with next steps. Hold another pointless meeting?
    Does it really serve her interest to be remembered as the one that triggered the downfall of HK due to her incompetence and inaction. Beijing cannot say this openly, but they have lost confidence in Lam. But there are things within her power she can do instead of keep acting like a wax figure.

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by cookie09:
    i think you look at this one-dimensional: Beijing is not one thing, there's at least three layers (HK liaison office, HKMAO, Central Gov). The HK liaison office is as good as dead already within that hierarchy, so Carrie can easily skip them if she wants to. The HKMAO has been much more guarded on what can or cannot be done; not saying they give a lot of leeway. The Central Gov clearly wants this thing to go away and ideally not have much to do with it. So within those constraints I think there is leeway for a skilled political player. The question of course is whether Carrie is that....
    I think unless China economy is near collapse due to the protests in Hong Kong, eg caused by bad international reputation, all businesses pulling out from China, then there will be a chance that China gov would let HK do what they want, to show the world, for China to regain a good image.

    Because at this point they would realized restricting HK is no longer worth it, as their financial lost could very well be multiples times of a HK economy.

    But opposite outcome could also be possible, China might take revenge from HK for their lost.

    Looking at all the positive announcements from the HK gov in the last few months, they are always in response to international pressure, eg the suspension of the bill, was made when the US was considering downgrading HK special status, finally "withdrawal of the bill" was announced before near a supposed China-US trade talk and Germany Chancellor was visiting China.

    It is always about financial gain/loss for China. No money no human right.

    From here onward, unless something so bad happened to China, very unlikely we can get any relief for anything that is political related.

    I think the community dialogue will just ended up to be "talk the talk, and walk the walk". Protesters will continues to walk for the rallies. This time around, the protesters will not be tricked again, as my understanding is that there were also dialogue being made in the last 2014 umbrella movement but ended up nothing.
    AsianXpat0 likes this.

  4. #94

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    I can't find this in english, only in chinese. So Carrie Lam has denied HK has the right to be autonomy! She said it is breaching the bottom line of One Country and Two Systems. It is absurd! A 21 yo young man has also pointed that out, all these years it was always "HK people self governed, high level autonomy". I remember this was menioned from China officials as well. Autonomy is written in the basic law.
    https://thestandnews.com/politics/%E...2%BB%E6%AC%8A/


  5. #95

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    If Carrie Lam has already denied HK has the right for autonomy, then the whole community dialogue is useless.

    I think that is what the China offcials have been telling her, she is just passing on the message.

    Last edited by a voice; 27-09-2019 at 11:31 PM.

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mefisto:
    From your violently pro-regime standpoint, what actual positives did you get from that "townhall meeting"?

    I didn't see any enagement from the unelected officials nor any actual recognition of the extent of "grassroots" dissatisfaction beyond stony faces.

    And what could Clam do, as the nominal/nominated head of HK government? For starters, she could simply announce that the government will start seeking ways to address the deep concerns Hongkongers have (let the CCP themselves deal with the outcry their secret dictates are causing if they block the promised electoral reforms!) and that she will order the "law enforcement" to cease using force or intimidation against the public unless it is in genuine self defence and...

    She might be dimly aware of the Five Demands which, if it needs pointing out, are all perfectly reasonable, legal and within the Chief Executive's power to pursue.

    That's what a representative of Hongkongers would do anyway.
    If you will allow me to say a word in fairness, I believe it would not be accurate to characterise MandM as violently pro-regime. She supports(/ed) at least some of the 5 demands. Her perspective is simply that of somebody who self-identifies as a realist who loves Hong Kong, who benefited from how it was structured, and was happy enough till Beijing overstepped with the extradition bill. I think her point of departure was when protests ceased being largely peaceful. (On the other hand, I think the realists have yet to concede that the violent protests do put more pressure on at least the local government, however remote the chances for fulfilment of the demands. The HK government likes peaceful protest because they can more easily ignore those, June 9th being an example. If applying pressure doesn’t make a difference, why should anybody think somebody who otherwise holds the whip hand would behave better when you ease off? The future is particularly grim without reform as if the political structure doesn’t change, we should expect dissidents to be rounded up and the pace of white terror to be stepped up.)

    Sophia Chan has had relatively higher ratings than other officials, and I noticed her straining to listen to a reporter’s question at one of the press conferences, unlike others just staring blankly into space. Tried to find the tweet I saw that said she wept at one point during the dialogue, but sadly could not find it to reproduce here. Otherwise I largely agree on the self-interested bunch of officials responding only to incentives and their one true master.

    I would agree with the rest of what you said, but sadly the CENO already treats One Country, Two Systems as the fiction it already is, and may never have been HK’s representative so much as an appointee. Didn’t she say there was no autonomy despite it being in the Basic Law? The entire conflict is because the local population now clearly recognised it is/has been sold down the river, despite what they have been promised. Trying to draw the curtain again won’t work, so the public has to hope to be given the autonomy they deserve, or the relevant parties pay the economic and political price.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by a voice:
    I think the community dialogue will just ended up to be "talk the talk, and walk the walk". Protesters will continues to walk for the rallies. This time around, the protesters will not be tricked again, as my understanding is that there were also dialogue being made in the last 2014 umbrella movement but ended up nothing.
    Adding to my previous post, not only there was nothing from the dialogue, but some of the activists were put to jail, threatening the society. Looks like HK people didn't retreated from those threat, instead have so far grew stronger.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by AsianXpat0:

    I would agree with the rest of what you said, but sadly the CENO already treats One Country, Two Systems as the fiction it already is, and may never have been HK’s representative so much as an appointee. Didn’t she say there was no autonomy despite it being in the Basic Law? The entire conflict is because the local population now clearly recognised it is/has been sold down the river, despite what they have been promised. Trying to draw the curtain again won’t work, so the public has to hope to be given the autonomy they deserve, or the relevant parties pay the economic and political price.
    Which is why, from some protesters' point of view, it makes perfect sense to lobby the US to pass that Congressional Bill to sancion HK and Mainland officials seen to have violated one country two systems. These pro-establishment sycophants in HK have no ethical conscience, they only understand power and personal benefit. If you attack those areas by making these officials suffer personal consequences, that is the only way to make them understand the consequences of their action.

    Now personally, I have reservations about the US bill. Right now, the US Congress and the protesters are one the same side against the HK government, but in the future, that may not be the case. The protesters may be inviting a lion into their bedroom when one day, the US decides it's in their interest to weaken or destroy HK rather than prop it up, using this bill as their weapon.

    But I suppose even if that was the case, one can only blame Lam for being so stupid and incompetent as to provide an opening for the US to step in.

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy:
    Now personally, I have reservations about the US bill. Right now, the US Congress and the protesters are one the same side against the HK government, but in the future, that may not be the case. The protesters may be inviting a lion into their bedroom when one day, the US decides it's in their interest to weaken or destroy HK rather than prop it up, using this bill as their weapon.
    Well, I hope the lion has gone to China, not staying in the room.

    That might be thinking too far ahead, this would have to wait until one day when the protesters are standing on China's side, and when would that be?

    I do think there are US officials who are genuinely supporting human right and liberty.

    This US bill, in a way, is actually protecting US investments by not investing in a city without human right, is really their internal affairs. It would be up to China if they want to destroy HK economy by not allowing human right. I don't really see US can turn around weaken the HK economy, I think this is exactly what the bill is doing, weaken the economy if there is no human right. This bill itself is already having US financial interest in mind, but in a much more ethical senses.

    That is my understanding.

  10. #100

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    Mefisto likes this.

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