Like Tree11Likes
  • 2 Post By shri
  • 6 Post By DimSumBond
  • 1 Post By stickyears
  • 2 Post By shri

The Cost of a Freedom Index Ranking...

Reply
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ???
    Posts
    28,722

    The Cost of a Freedom Index Ranking...

    I know I'm cherry picking and so is the author of the article.

    Do as we do... pick a side and rant... I mean debate.

    In the workshops devoted to creating the indexes, Friedman cited the example of Hong Kong as evidence for the truth of this proposition, saying: “There is almost no doubt that if you had political freedom in Hong Kong you would have much less economic and civil freedom than you do as a result of an authoritarian government.”

    Hong Kong’s former chief executive, CY Leung, agreed. During the “umbrella revolution” protests of 2014 he was asked why suffrage could not be expanded. His matter-of-fact response was that this would increase the power of the poor and lead to “the kind of politics” that favour the expansion of the welfare state instead of business-friendly policies. For him, the tradeoff between economic and political freedom was not buried in an index. It was as clear as day.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-neoliberalism
    si0001 and East_coast like this.

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,592

    This is actually a very interesting article, unexpected but interesting.


  3. #3

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,005

    You are free to vote with your feet (subject to being allowed in or out of where you are or where you are going).

    But look at where people have voted with their feet, or lives, in the past.

    HK or Mainland China (people in the 1950s or company listings today)
    East Berlin or West Berlin.
    Eastern Europe or Western Europe.
    Cuba or the USA.
    North Korea or South Korea.
    Venezuela or anywhere else.
    Sudan or Europe.
    Mexican drugs gangs or the USA.
    ....and so on....

    I'm astonished so many round here (Wumaos excepted) keep arguing for former.


  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    366

    I typically have a good chuckle at all the indexes out there. These are just pats on the backs endorsed by the shills of crony capitalists. Freedom in today's context means not getting caught. There has been a definite backwards step in consumer rights over the last two decades coupled with leaps and bounds in privacy intrusion for the sake of privacy intrusion - not that it matter that much.

    Brexit is a decent movie which touches on giving power to the people and what this has led to.

    Sadly, there is no middle ground as human greed ALWAYS goes too far.

    The future has never looked so uncertain. There will be a big change ahead and it will steal the wealth of an entire generation to prolong the ponzi scheme.

    shri, MandM!, Tadashi and 3 others like this.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,592
    Quote Originally Posted by stickyears
    Bending quotes as ever.

    Ever seen a non-democratic society improve the arteries of free exchange?
    Previously I would have agreed with you but this is what makes this article interesting.

    "When Walker’s Fraser Institute published its first index in 1996 with a foreword from Friedman, there were some surprises. According to its historical overview, the second freest economy in the world in 1975 was Honduras, a military dictatorship. For the next year, another dictatorship, Guatemala, was in the top five."

    And just to be clear, I am not arguing or looking for an argument with you, no need for any hostility.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,005
    Quote Originally Posted by si0001
    Previously I would have agreed with you but this is what makes this article interesting.

    "When Walker’s Fraser Institute published its first index in 1996 with a foreword from Friedman, there were some surprises. According to its historical overview, the second freest economy in the world in 1975 was Honduras, a military dictatorship. For the next year, another dictatorship, Guatemala, was in the top five."

    And just to be clear, I am not arguing or looking for an argument with you, no need for any hostility.
    Shri is tidying up this thread faster than you can reply, but before he does, if you want to go and live in a military dictatorship believing it better for you of your family, off you go. The point is HKers don't think that and are willing to die not to do so.

    It is funny how Googling all these anti-Friedman quotes shot at me lead to the same Guardian article. Almost like they are made up crap.
    Bob Loblaw likes this.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,592

    Just to be clear, I am not learned on the subject and have minimal knowledge beyond your average lay-person. By that I mean, free market should mean freedom should mean democracy right? That is what I thought but now I'm not as sure.

    This was actually the first time I had heard of Friedman so I was not looking for anti-Friedman quotes. In fact, I think that index was built in corroboration with Friedman.

    I'm not well versed enough to really analyse the merits of this article so right now I'm just taking everything at face value.


  8. #8

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ???
    Posts
    28,722

    I think the article is a good start to researching how some of these think tanks work, who sponsors them and how they spread their religion of sorts.

    I have had a fairly low opinion about think tanks that rate HK high in terms of economic freedom.

    Posted this here as someone mentioned HKs ranking in some other thread that I could not be bothered with.

    Bob Loblaw and Jessica A. like this.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,005
    Quote Originally Posted by si0001
    Just to be clear, I am not learned on the subject and have minimal knowledge beyond your average lay-person. By that I mean, free market should mean freedom should mean democracy right? That is what I thought but now I'm not as sure.

    This was actually the first time I had heard of Friedman so I was not looking for anti-Friedman quotes. In fact, I think that index was built in corroboration with Friedman.

    I'm not well versed enough to really analyse the merits of this article so right now I'm just taking everything at face value.
    Ignore indicies, political dogma and quotes. Look are where you would want you and your familiy to live. Look at where people are risking death to escape from or get to today. Look at history. That should tell you all you need to know about freedom.

    Friedman wasn't perfect, but he did explain things in very simple terms that convinced me of his desire and aims for all people to be free of their governments and to work with their fellow main. Start here if you want to understand how his ideas where backed up by the experiment instigated by JJ Cowperthwaite (and why HK people are doing what they are now doing):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqh0zXSd4vc

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    ???
    Posts
    28,722

    @stickyears appreciate the passion, but can we take it down a couple of notches? Unless you are using some advanced socratic techniques if you are... Keep it at 11..no problems.