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Who is leaving HK, Anecdotal Evidence - Part 2

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  1. #601

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    Quote Originally Posted by z754103:
    The older population has disproportionately been the ones not getting vaccinated. They also tend to be the cohort that has higher trust for the government. The original government message was that you shouldn't get vaccinated if you have high blood pressure, high blood glucose or heart disease risk. They subsequently amended that you to should get your doctor's approval before vaccination if you have these three risk factors or other underlying medical conditions.

    For low income elderly, getting public hospital appointments to consult the relevant doctors looking after whichever condition(s) they've been treated for takes a long time. Meantime the original messages to consult a doctor before getting vaccinated has impressed everyone with the notion that the vaccine is highly risky. Over the past 18 months, news about the Western world has generally been reported with the editorial stance that all abroad is chaotic, dangerous and inferior to Greater China. So the facts about successful vaccination programs prioritizing the oldest age groups in other countries have not been as widely disseminated across the community, as they might have been a few years ago.

    Viewing this against the backdrop that HK didn't introduce universal primary education until 1971, large numbers of the older unvaccinated cohort didn't receive formal education, have low literacy levels, and therefore less means to search out alternative viewpoints by themselves. It's questionable whether low vaccination rates among the most vulnerable can fairly seen as
    result of idiots who deserve all they get.
    The discussion on why HKer's were/are not getting vaxxed (The elderly are the longest holdouts) has been explored as nauseam, as I said, we know the reason's why, and there are several other big ones you've not covered.

    The long and short of it is that these are the locals attitudes (to school closures.... and vaccines, and masks and freedom of choice etc etc etc) and local HKer's are responsible for them.

    They reap what they sow.
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  2. #602

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage:
    The discussion on why HKer's were/are not getting vaxxed (The elderly are the longest holdouts) has been explored as nauseam, as I said, we know the reason's why, and there are several other big ones you've not covered.

    The long and short of it is that these are the locals attitudes (to school closures.... and vaccines, and masks and freedom of choice etc etc etc) and local HKer's are responsible for them.

    They reap what they sow.
    I'm sorry, the community really isn't responsible for what's been happening. They have no choice of representation, no influence over policy, no means of questioning or expressing views through the press. Even the public housing estate resident associations were disbanded a few months ago. There is no means of input unless you belong to a vested interest group, a patriotic association, or an officially sanctioned political group.

    People asking neutral questions about policy decisions are frequently and routinely threatened with the sedition laws. Even in the past month, senior officials have warned yet again that people not expressing support for government covid policies could be in breach of the law and that they will rigorously seek them out for prosecution.

    As for opinion surveys, when the most trusted and reputable conductor of surveys has had their offices searched, and regularly attacked by officials and the patriotic media as a potential criminal, how many parents who don't agree with current policy would respond to an opinion poll? Or if forced to respond, would say what they think?

    The HK community is certainly reaping something, but they weren't doing the sowing.
    Last edited by z754103; 25-03-2022 at 12:16 AM.
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  3. #603

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    Quote Originally Posted by z754103:
    I'm sorry, the community really isn't responsible for what's been happening. They have no choice of representation, no influence over policy, no means of questioning or expressing views through the press. Even the public housing estate resident associations were disbanded a few months ago. There is no means of input unless you belong to a vested interest group, a patriotic association, or an officially sanctioned political group.

    People asking neutral questions about policy decisions are frequently and routinely threatened with the sedition laws. Even in the past month, senior officials have warned yet again that people not expressing support for government covid policies could be in breach of the law and that they will rigorously seek them out for prosecution.

    As for opinion surveys, when the most trusted and reputable conductor of surveys has had their offices searched, and regularly attacked by officials and the patriotic media as a potential criminal, how many parents who don't agree with current policy would respond to an opinion poll? Or if forced to respond, would say what they think?

    The HK community is certainly reaping something, but they weren't doing the sowing.
    The reason for the NSL law was because the government was trying to push for an extradition law to send someone who killed a girl and stuffed her in a suitcase to Taiwan.

    A big chunk of the population was supportive of the movement. And that is despite the fact that China could make you disappear and found back in China already. So that law would not change anything. There was a massive anti-Chinese sentiment at the start of the protests and a lot of wrong things were done by the both sides.

    Now we get an even worse law. I'm quite neutral on that since I can leave HK if I'm not happy. But the people are reaping what they sow.
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  4. #604

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plutark:
    The reason for the NSL law was because the government was trying to push for an extradition law to send someone who killed a girl and stuffed her in a suitcase to Taiwan.

    A big chunk of the population was supportive of the movement. And that is despite the fact that China could make you disappear and found back in China already. So that law would not change anything. There was a massive anti-Chinese sentiment at the start of the protests and a lot of wrong things were done by the both sides.

    Now we get an even worse law. I'm quite neutral on that since I can leave HK if I'm not happy. But the people are reaping what they sow.
    I'm not sure what you mean by a large chunk of the population being supportive of that movement?

    If you mean the government's extradition law, that saw the largest peaceful protests the city had experienced. Between 1-1.5 million people marched in protest, on more than one occasion, against that extradition law. The legal community was against it. Even segments of the pro China business community didnt want it. And in the end the public did manage to stop that law being passed. There was no sign that the initiative for that law had come from mainland authorities.

    From all appearances this seemed to be one of our dear CE's brilliant initiatives. As you said, the mainland didn't show signs of needing this legal change.

    We may be talking at cross purposes! So we can understand each other better, may I check what you see the community as having sown?
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  5. #605

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    Quote Originally Posted by z754103:
    The older population has disproportionately been the ones not getting vaccinated. They also tend to be the cohort that has higher trust for the government. The original government message was that you shouldn't get vaccinated if you have high blood pressure, high blood glucose or heart disease risk. They subsequently amended that you to should get your doctor's approval before vaccination if you have these three risk factors or other underlying medical conditions.

    For low income elderly, getting public hospital appointments to consult the relevant doctors looking after whichever condition(s) they've been treated for takes a long time. Meantime the original messages to consult a doctor before getting vaccinated has impressed everyone with the notion that the vaccine is highly risky. Over the past 18 months, news about the Western world has generally been reported with the editorial stance that all abroad is chaotic, dangerous and inferior to Greater China. So the facts about successful vaccination programs prioritizing the oldest age groups in other countries have not been as widely disseminated across the community, as they might have been a few years ago.

    Viewing this against the backdrop that HK didn't introduce universal primary education until 1971, large numbers of the older unvaccinated cohort didn't receive formal education, have low literacy levels, and therefore less equipped to search out alternative viewpoints by themselves. It's questionable whether low vaccination rates among the most vulnerable can be fairly seen as the
    result of idiots who deserve all they get.
    Excellent post. It is good to see someone who observed what happened, rather than constructing fantasies in their own head and then hoping for/rejoycing in the senseless deaths of thousands of Hong Kong'ers - all of which had families and lives of their own.
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  6. #606

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    Quote Originally Posted by Plutark:
    The reason for the NSL law was because the government was trying to push for an extradition law to send someone who killed a girl and stuffed her in a suitcase to Taiwan.

    A big chunk of the population was supportive of the movement. And that is despite the fact that China could make you disappear and found back in China already. So that law would not change anything. There was a massive anti-Chinese sentiment at the start of the protests and a lot of wrong things were done by the both sides.

    Now we get an even worse law. I'm quite neutral on that since I can leave HK if I'm not happy. But the people are reaping what they sow.
    This is absolute bullshit. Do you honestly believe that the NSL had ANYTHING to do with that Taiwanese case? The same NSL they have been trying to bring in since the handover? Using the extradition was a tiny fig-leaf at best, than 99.99% of people saw straight through.
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  7. #607

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    This post is just factually wrong on so many levels. Were you in HK at all in 2019?

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutark:
    The reason for the NSL law was because the government was trying to push for an extradition law to send someone who killed a girl and stuffed her in a suitcase to Taiwan.
    WRONG. The NSL and the extradition law were elements in an ongoing acceleration of forced mainlandisation , especially since 2012 after Xi came into power. People didn't go out in mass peaceful protests for this one law alone, but because they were sick of their voices not being heard, government not responding to election results and earlier promises etc, meanwhile they felt their freedoms and way of live shrinking by the day. The extradition just was a drop too many, just like it was back in 2014 during the Umbrella protests already.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutark:
    A big chunk of the population was supportive of the movement. And that is despite the fact that China could make you disappear and found back in China already. So that law would not change anything.
    WRONG. Not only did millions participate in peaceful mass protests, the election results in November 2019, after months of heavy protests and police crackdown, showed a clear overwhelming majority of HK'ers in full support of the protests. The government line of a "silent majority" was clearly shattered. And it's bewildering while you would claim otherwise, or pretending society is/was split in the middle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plutark:
    There was a massive anti-Chinese sentiment at the start of the protests and a lot of wrong things were done by the both sides.
    There was a anti-mainlandisation sentiment, for the stated above reasons, which is not the same as "Anti-China", seems you are a victim of government propaganda. Your "both sides" claim is also problematic, in that yes some people choose to resort to a more violent approach (still a minority among millions peacefully marching) but this was a reaction after decades of a government not responding to clear citizen demands, and having been under attack from all kinds of unprecedented police brutality and organized terror attacks. Don't behave as if both sides showed equal violence.
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  8. #608

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    Don't behave as if both sides showed equal violence.
    Also lets not forget the chronology of events leading to first violent incident from protestor, total disdain of peaceful march by CE, crocodile tears in front of business community, grossly downplaying numbers on street, making peaceful protest illegal and then finally the ugliest card of all, putting Popos in civil clothes as moles to instigate and turn events violent and then conveniently letting mob destroy LegCo to score some brownie points, triad joining Popos to beat people and so on, can go on and on but anyway we are digressing from topic..
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  9. #609

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    Quote Originally Posted by z754103:
    I'm sorry, the community really isn't responsible for what's been happening. They have no choice of representation, no influence over policy, no means of questioning or expressing views through the press. Even the public housing estate resident associations were disbanded a few months ago. There is no means of input unless you belong to a vested interest group, a patriotic association, or an officially sanctioned political group.

    People asking neutral questions about policy decisions are frequently and routinely threatened with the sedition laws. Even in the past month, senior officials have warned yet again that people not expressing support for government covid policies could be in breach of the law and that they will rigorously seek them out for prosecution.

    As for opinion surveys, when the most trusted and reputable conductor of surveys has had their offices searched, and regularly attacked by officials and the patriotic media as a potential criminal, how many parents who don't agree with current policy would respond to an opinion poll? Or if forced to respond, would say what they think?

    The HK community is certainly reaping something, but they weren't doing the sowing.
    I agree about the govt, but not about the extent of community responsibility.

    Which came first? The chicken or the egg?

    The simple fact remains that dictatorships thrive much more readily amongst Chinese attitudes, and paranoia about covid is rife amongst the local population.

    Populations by and large get the leaders they deserve.

    Now back to the thread.

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  10. #610

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiaque:
    I thought you already did a bit of an extended period out in Portugal -- or was that just for the visas?

    We are looking at end of June. Looking like we will have the summer off in Europe! Two months of holiday! (Maybe a permanent holiday for me if I don't find a new job...)

    Still need about a month to confirm. I worry a bit that the company will be a bit sluggish... bit pricey to organize everything ourselves though.
    That was just a washout last year. May go back this year if we get our appointment for fingerprints... but our visas seem to be in limbo right now.

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