Like Tree1Likes

Using HK as a working base. Not paying tax ?

Closed Thread
Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
  1. #31

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905
    Quote Originally Posted by hello_there:
    Wow, you are so wrong (except about foreigners being permitted to own property). If you take up residence in HK you are required to have a valid visa (unless you are a perminent resident). You cannot work, even out of your home. You cannot study (even in elementary school) without a student or dependent visa.

    As others have noted, according to HK Immigration:
    "Unless Part I applies to you, you require a visa or entry permit to work, study, establish or join in any business or to take up residence in the HKSAR. Otherwise, you are taking the risk of being refused admission on arrival...

    ...5. Visitors are required to have adequate funds to cover the duration of their stay without working and, unless in transit to the Mainland of China or the region of Macau, to hold onward or return tickets. If you want to stay longer than the visa free period allowed, you must apply for a visa or entry permit before travelling to the HKSAR.

    6. Visitors are not allowed by law to take up employment (paid or unpaid), to establish or join in any business, or to enter school as a student, nor, except in the most unusual circumstances, are visitors allowed to change their immigration status after arrival."

    (The Government of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region - Immigration Department)
    I am not arguing about the letter of the law which is why I think the OP should stay away from it.

    Who decides or deems that one become a resident? If I come in stay in a hotel for 90 days and then leave and come back. Am I a resident? If I stay at a friend? If I stay at a place I bought?

    Technically, it is correct that without a visa, the person can be refused entry. The question is whether it's likely or not... As I said, it's unlikely to happen unless they suspect criminal activities.

    As to working, there would need to be evidence of him working in HK. Again realistically there isn't any evidence since there's no meeting with anyone in HK nor any monies being collected. Why would there be a problem?

    Another example, I am a writer and I come to HK to write a book. I stay three times 90 days for research. Sure technically, I am working but who would know? You think the writer would bother to apply for visas, pay tax on the proceeds of the book etc... Not a chance.

    Of course if you go to the authorities and spell out what you are doing there's a fair chance that there will be complications. I think it's a much better approach to act as if you are a very frequent visitor to HK for "private" reasons and just keep doing what you've been doing since the only real risk is being denied entry for some nebulous reason which almost never happens.

  2. #32

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    In a little burrow
    Posts
    943

    Gilles, all it takes it 1 uppity immigration officer and the OP will be out. They can refuse entry for any reason, any time. It might happen soon, it might not. But the risk is there, and the OP seems to have a lot riding on it. If it were just him and a suitcase, then OK. But with a family in tow? Incredibly naive.


  3. #33

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905

    True but the alternative is to try to sort this out at immigration and the result might very well be the same or the OP might end up paying quite a bit of money...

    Under what scenario do you see the OP getting a proper visa for him and his family? The quality migrant scheme? What if he's not selected?

    I guess in the end it's how much is that peace of mind worth and whether you can afford it...


  4. #34

    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Hong Kong, from UK
    Posts
    3,838

    gilleshk, I've got to say, I think you're giving some terrible advice. There is no question that the OP is illegally residing in HK, working in HK and/or China without the right to do so, and illegally evading taxation. Saying "oh, don't worry, you'll probably get away with it" is really not helpful, since the consequences of being caught could be so severe.

    I would say there's a pretty decent chance of the OP and/or his/her family being pulled up by immigration sooner or later - as has been say, probably more likely the family, particularly if they are doing regular three-monthly runs rather than more natural comings and goings. The immigration people aren't stupid, they do have electronic records, and probably some automated analysis which will flag questionable situations. I think there's probably also a non-zero chance that somebody will notice the lack of taxes being paid - presumably the UK company is reporting that they are paying an employee in Hong Kong, and it wouldn't surprise me if the HK and UK tax/immigration people talk to each other every now and again... And so on and so on.

    I think the best advice to the OP has to be to speak to an accountant and/or lawyer who is familiar with tax and immigration issues, as soon as possible - either to normalise the situation, or at least to prepare for when the sh*t hits the fan, be it 1 week or 1 year from now.

    The closest thing I've heard to this is someone who lived and worked her for a year, for her UK employer - but who was still paid in the UK and paid taxes in the UK. She lost that job, found a local one, submitted her visa application and was told that she'd been here for a year illegally. After being threatened with fines and even possible jail time by immigration, she did manage to talk her way out of trouble, but it was pretty scary. And she was a) paying tax somewhere, and b) not involving other members of her family...


  5. #35

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905
    Quote Originally Posted by vmlinuz:
    gilleshk, I've got to say, I think you're giving some terrible advice. There is no question that the OP is illegally residing in HK, working in HK and/or China without the right to do so, and illegally evading taxation. Saying "oh, don't worry, you'll probably get away with it" is really not helpful, since the consequences of being caught could be so severe.

    I would say there's a pretty decent chance of the OP and/or his/her family being pulled up by immigration sooner or later - as has been say, probably more likely the family, particularly if they are doing regular three-monthly runs rather than more natural comings and goings. The immigration people aren't stupid, they do have electronic records, and probably some automated analysis which will flag questionable situations. I think there's probably also a non-zero chance that somebody will notice the lack of taxes being paid - presumably the UK company is reporting that they are paying an employee in Hong Kong, and it wouldn't surprise me if the HK and UK tax/immigration people talk to each other every now and again... And so on and so on.

    I think the best advice to the OP has to be to speak to an accountant and/or lawyer who is familiar with tax and immigration issues, as soon as possible - either to normalise the situation, or at least to prepare for when the sh*t hits the fan, be it 1 week or 1 year from now.

    The closest thing I've heard to this is someone who lived and worked her for a year, for her UK employer - but who was still paid in the UK and paid taxes in the UK. She lost that job, found a local one, submitted her visa application and was told that she'd been here for a year illegally. After being threatened with fines and even possible jail time by immigration, she did manage to talk her way out of trouble, but it was pretty scary. And she was a) paying tax somewhere, and b) not involving other members of her family...
    I can't disagree that consulting a lawyer/accountant would be a much better idea than to take advice from shady characters such as myself on a site...

    All I can say is that I know people who have been doing similar things for years without any problems whatsoever but I won't disagree that anyone can be refused entry at any times. I trust the OP is wise enough to read everyone's position and advice make the decision that is right for him and his family.

    I certainly don't claim that my advice is the best one...it's simply what I would do and have done in the past but everyone is different and I'm quite happy to play it fast and loose when I can...

    As to the legality of it all ,that's subject to interpretation and that's what lawyers are great at...

  6. #36

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    14,414
    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    All I can say is that I know people who have been doing similar things for years without any problems whatsoever but I won't disagree that anyone can be refused entry at any times. I trust the OP is wise enough to read everyone's position and advice make the decision that is right for him and his family.
    Just because they've been doing it for years doesn't make it right and or legal.

    Well if the OP was wise enough in the first place then they should of checked the legality of what he intended to do before settling here.
    My money is on the OP carrying on as before then a new post x months down the line complaining that he's being kicked out of HK.

  7. #37

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905

    Strictly speaking what is illegal about coming to HK and staying three months or less as it is allowed then leaving for a day or two and coming back and getting another three months stamp?

    There's nothing illegal about that but you are at the mercy of immigration who may decide to refuse entry and question why it is that you keep coming to HK.

    The work part if somewhat greyer but it can be argued that no work is being performed in HK or for HK businesses. Unlike other countries who are happy to tax worldwide income, HK only taxes what it calls source income therefore someone earning rental income in another country for example would not be subject to HK taxation.

    In saome countries, you might be deemed a resident and then subject to taxation on all your income if you spend a certain amount of time in the country. Hence you used to see NBA players on canadian teams living just over the border to avoid paying canadian taxes because they would be staying in the country for too long.


  8. #38

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Kowloon HK
    Posts
    1,226
    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo:
    My money is on the OP carrying on as before then a new post x months down the line complaining that he's being kicked out of HK.
    Ah... BUT as others have previously speculated: IF he/she is white (OR near-nuff "white") and/or well-dressed and -spoken, plus has the gift of the gab - so to speak - openly smiling while letting slip wee fibs... chances are civil servants won't be onto him/her for quite some time. Why add to already busy in-trays when they can pick off loadsa more-easier-to-spot and (likely) LESS-privileged ones, eh...

    I know of one such resourceful, sparky girl who's working as an Eng teacher to local kiddies. And she's been happily in-&-outta here YONKEY YEARS.

    (Coming clean, OK... admit: I, maybe, get a teeny bit irritated when she mentions never ever having received any dreaded green tax forms from dearest IRD.)
    Last edited by emmie; 12-05-2009 at 05:16 PM. Reason: Typos, etc

  9. #39

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sai Kung
    Posts
    8,561

    ah, yes... i hope she doesn't get sick and need the hospital, though!


  10. #40

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Southside
    Posts
    656

    I don't see what the big deal is. He's not working for or with HK companies and isn't paid in HK. It's no different to someone spending their life travelling the world working as they travel. Are they supposed to pay tax in every country they visit?

    So what if he has to do visa runs. They are perfectly legal which is why so many people do them. Again, this is all predicated on the fact that he's not working for HK companies or being paid here. Any of that changes and yes, I would think he'd have more or a problem.