HK, staying relevant..

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  1. #21

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    The real point about greenery is that our PARKS should have a lot more of it. The average HK urban park is all tennis courts, pink tiles, weird walkways and wide concrete paths.

    It's possible that if we were allowed to walk on the grass, even with much more of it around, it would get worn away by the highly concentrated population.

    Then again, maybe it wouldn't. There's some lovely scenery in the more remote areas of HK but we really need a Hyde or Central Park.


  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigga:
    There's some lovely scenery in the more remote areas of HK but we really need a Hyde or Central Park.
    Absolutely.

  3. #23

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    Its quiet interesting this thread, especially where people who don't have toddler aged children are mentioning how easy it is living in a city that really doesnt offer public parks that you can walk on the grass. Lots of public parks with their NO STANDING on the grass signs etc, ( inc the typical no fun signs, ie mo kite flying, rc cars, roller skates/blades bicycling signs etc etc) , Hong Kong is very family unfriendly in this regard, when it comes to city parks.

    It's a fact that I agree with Special K about. In contrast to say Melbourne,
    [IMG] They are diametrically opposed in this area of city life.

    Those that are willing to sacrifice a bit of their work commute time, for the sake of their childrens out door play time, will choose area's in HK that are best suited, and depending on the housing allowance provided, there are a host of area's that are kid friendly and very close to a western level of enjoyment.

    Area's like:


    * The Sai Kung district which Clearwater Bay is part of.

    * Various area's of the South Side of HK Island Shouson Hill to Shek O. Beach and greenery.

    * Discovery Bay Beach and greenery

    * Various parts of Tai Po, especially the dual/tri level house, secure villa complexes...

    * The Gold Coast, very kid friendly etc ie beaches and lawned parks, we have one right out front of our complex in Siu Lam, one of the reasons we chose to live here, with view to child friendly facilities/features.

    * Yuen Long has a massive public botanical garden/park, that is fully covered in public accessible lawn, off Ma Tin road....If you lived in Scenic Villa's opposite for example, how convenient is that...

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    There are many alternatives though, and it really boils down to configuring a lifestyle that fits best for you. You can do it, but you might have to sacrifice city life to be able to do it conveniently, but you won't achieve both...

    Ask anybody who lives in Sai Kung with kids ( I know lots ) and not a single one of them would live couped up in a high rise in the city, when they are used to living in a 2100 - 3000ft2 3 storey home, surrounded by perimeter lawned garden, often a bay view, and quiet a few even have either their own or a communal in ground pool shared between a cluster of 6 houses, like in Yan Ye Road Tai Mong Tsai.....

    It is possible, you just have to work around it and move out of the city...
    Last edited by Skyhook; 24-02-2009 at 06:17 PM.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by beachball:
    To run through gilles's list:
    • Best airport in the world and one of the best airline(shanghai nowhere near) You would probably get an argument from Singapore here, but more importantly, HKG's relative advantage over Beijing, Shanghai, etc. is shrinking rapidly.

      Interesting statement with no supporting evidence... By the way, HKG airport voted #1 several years in a row, easy to check, no arguments.

    • Best selection of English speaking schools by far(neither Shanghai nor Singapore are near) Not sure about that (no kids yet) - but I do know a number of expats who have left HKG for Singapore (and other places) solely for the schooling of their kids.

      Anecdotal argument, the fact is that HK international schools are thriving and have more kids then ever, more locals and more expats. ESF has opened two new schools, ICS brand new building, CDNIS has doubled its population in the last 10 years. Doesn't sound like a sinking ship to me
    • One of the best port facilities in the world( on par with Shanghai and Singapore) Not any longer, taking into consideration the cost base. Lots of traffic has moved to Shenzhen, etc. and continues to do so.
      A quick check reveals that SG, Shanghai, Shenzhen and HK ports have ALL been growing but HK at a slower rate than the others. It's still in the top 5 in the world.
    • Access to excellent workforce with good english speaking skills(on par with Sg, better than Shanghai) Somewhat true, but much less so than in the past. Both the level of English and the relevance of it for many roles are dropping noticeably.
      English losing relevance??? You wouldn't know it by the population growth in International Schools all over the world. The fact that learning mandarin is also important doesn't negate the importance of knowing English. It is and will remain the language of business for many years to come. Even if the level of English has dropped, it's still miles ahead of Shanghai...
    • Next door to China who will undeniably be an economic power for many years to come(on par with Shanghai, better than Sg) Not anywhere close to Shanghai or Beijing. Geographically obviously superior to Singapore, but not in terms of access to decision makers, etc.

      That's arguable, maybe not as good if you're doing business in China but better as a hub for all asian countries including China. Taxes are higher in China, not to mention corruption at all levels, not as many flight connections, better communication infrastructure(phone, internet). Geography is and always will be relevant until you can beam people up Scotty...
    • Stable and fairly well governed without too much corruption(on par with SG and way better than Shanghai) Have to disagree on this one. Not anywhere close to Singapore - and probably behind Shanghai and Beijing at this stage, given all the favors to the cartels/tycoons. Quality of government and regulations is slipping both in absolute and relative terms.

    Arguments with no evidence... on the other hand very easy to find lists of countries difficult to do business in that includes China. Singapore being better is arguable and like China, it lacks the political freedom which means that you are doing business at the pleasure of the political power.

    Hong Kong has been fotunate occupy a privileged position, including:
    1. strategic location for shipping, trade, etc.
    2. good general infrastructure
    3. highly qualified (and English speaking) workforce
    4. stable legal environment
    5. economic incentives like low taxes
    6. good regulatory system
    7. privileged access to China
    8. favorable living environment (natural beauty, green spaces, sea, good connections to other Asian destinations, etc.)
    9. good expat infrastructure (schools, goods & services, etc.)


    Of these:
    1. continues to be true, but is becoming less relevant
    2. is still true, but not a real competitive advantage any longer (or much less so)
    3. becoming less true and less relevant
    4. continues to be a major asset
    5. continues to be true
    6. is being eroded rapidly (and could be a real problem for Hong Kong as a financial center)
    7. has all but disappeared
    8. still true, if you can tolerate the air pollution
    9. still true


    In short, Hong Kong has for some time benefited from its privileged position of being a much better base to
    • both live and work and
    • to access to China.

    than anywhere else.
    It continues to be very good (although probably not quite world-class) for the former on absolute terms, but places like Beijing and Shanghai are catching up rapidly relatively speaking (and have already overtaken Hong Kong in terms of nightlife, restaurants, cultural scene, etc.). For the latter, there is really no point to be based in Hong Kong any longer to do business in China - Beijing and Shanghai are just so much superior.

    Wow here's another argument with little substance or evidence. How do you define being better in terms of nightlife and restaurants for example? Purely an opinion...There are so many reasons why I disagree with this starting with the fact that business isn't done in a vacuum, the fact that you have reasons to go to China doesn't mean you don't go anywhere else.

    I first arrived in Hong Kong 11 (almost 12) years ago and after stints here, in Singapore, Tokyo, Shanghai, and Beijing, I still truly love this place, but I see no real rationale for Hong Kong to be a major a hub going forward (other than the historical reasons mentioned above - most of which are in decline). IMHO Hong Kong has (at least so far failed) to reinvent itself and to create reasons to be really relevant in the future.
    In the end, I see many statements that are merely opinions with absolutely no hard evidence to support them...
    Last edited by gilleshk; 24-02-2009 at 07:44 PM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    In the end, I see many statements that are merely opinions with absolutely no hard evidence to support them...
    Absolutely, because that was what my post was meant to express: My views on a number of issues, which in total support my overall opinion. Happy to debate all or any of these points and discuss the evidence for and against them (thanks for providing some facts backing up my statements).

  6. #26
    fm7
    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    In the end, I see many statements that are merely opinions with absolutely no hard evidence to support them...
    Part of the problem with discussing "relevance" is relevant to whom and to what? In the end, we can't discuss relevance with either focussing on specific industries, or specific life experiences - both of which will inevitably add an element of subjectivity.

    Take, for example, the US. A lot of people might assume that if you are a songwriter, the place to go is LA or NYC. But, if you want to get steady work, the best bet is Nashville. Consider Spain - would you move to Madrid or Barcelona. Actually, Valencia has highest number of musicians per capita in the whole of Europe.

    You can do the same kind of analysis for every industry (Richard Florida's work is a good place to start).

    HK still plays a big role in Finance, but in terms of advertising and marketing, for example, it's been secondary for a long time. HK is a player in telecoms, but the film industry has been sliding a lot. Part of what worries me is I don't see the city investing in the areas where there is no clear regional leader - like design. The move to attract SCAD is wise, but it's a drop in the ocean.

    Then there's the question of lifestyle, which is really not totally disconnected from the work thing. Raleigh NC is a hub for biotech and pharma *and* a place that gives people in that industry an attractive lifestyle (for them).

    My experience here (yeah, that's plenty subjective!) is that there are sharp divides about the HK lifestyle. It's not just families versus singles, drinkers versus non-drinkers or any of the other cliches. There's a lot of sharp either/or choices you have to make to live here and in plenty of other cities, theres more room to create your own solutions.

    As discussed here, the space/green thing was presented as just such an either/or. Either urban, or parks. Well, in plenty of cities in the world, its not an either or. Same for urban or nice walks, or urban and kid friendly.

    In order to create a breadth of relevance to a range of industries, HK needs to accommodate a diversity of lifestyles. It seems to me that HK is struggling with that.

  7. #27

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    DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by beachball:
    Absolutely, because that was what my post was meant to express: My views on a number of issues, which in total support my overall opinion. Happy to debate all or any of these points and discuss the evidence for and against them (thanks for providing some facts backing up my statements).
    Hong Kong information on economic freedom | Facts, data, analysis, charts and more

    Well it seems I'm not the only one to disagree with you. Hong Kong ranks #1 in the world for economic freedom. That doesn't sound like a place that is slipping too much. Interestingly enough, Singapore droped by 0.2% and HK gained by 0.3%...

    I'm quite happy to entertain arguments where supporting facts are given. I have seen none in yours.

    Hong Kong has shown economic growth, gone through crisis and rebounded, low unemployment, has more expats than ever, international schools are growing. I would certainly need something a bit more solid than my cousin and neighbours have decided to move because they don't like pollution or the rent was too high...

    And as I said, I've been hearing these arguments for over 10 years, yet HK still comes up as number one in the word for economic freedom. If that's not an indicator for a place that is good to do business, I don't know what is...
    Last edited by gilleshk; 25-02-2009 at 01:31 PM.

  9. #29

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    Your arrogance is really quite impressive... Your original post had just statements, all of which - except maybe for the airport ranking - are nothing that can be rigorously proven. And hence not true/false by default. They were just your opinion (although I share that opinion for most of the points). Beachball was simply offering a different opinion and, unlike you, he at least added some reasoning to his statements. And here you come and dismiss it all as "argument without evidence".

    As if you had given any.


  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by fm7:
    In order to create a breadth of relevance to a range of industries, HK needs to accommodate a diversity of lifestyles. It seems to me that HK is struggling with that.
    A diversity of lifestyles is HK's problem?

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