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Week 9 of Occupy Central: Updates & Discussions

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  1. #1

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    Week 9 of Occupy Central: Updates & Discussions

    Regina Ip is pushing for Article 23 again but with a charm offensive this time...

    To counter pernicious external influences, the government needs more than new, clever legislation, It needs a core, rational philosophy capable of countering international causes which have become, in the eyes of some, a just cause above the law. It needs a new narrative which makes "one country, two systems" and the achievement of the Basic Law once again appealing to Hong Kong people.


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    Quote Originally Posted by threesummers:




    Fanny Law: A friend told me recently more people have emigrated, they are not afraid of the Communist Party, but rather they are afraid of young people.


    Joshua Wong: Please tell your friend, you can emigrate to a place with no Communist Party, but you can't emigrate to a place without young people.
    Normally, when the elites in society regard its young people as a threat to its well-being, it would indicate a serious problem with the stability and balance of that society. But no, in Hong Kong, no one stops to reflect on that.

    True, generation conflict is not something unique to HK. In many Western countries, many also disparage their youths as lazy, unmotivated, naive and simply unprepared for the realities of how the world works. But no where is this generation gap more severe than in HK. The level of hostility between the youths and their parents generation is so wide is like they are from a different world and speaking a different language with one another.

    And all that is not promising for HK's future, if the youths are the key to continuing prosperity of the city, then the fact that so many of them are alienated from today's HK society is a potential time bomb. The pro-establishment's adoption of a sense of superiority through paternalistic lectures at the students not only fail to resolve the issue but harden the lines between them.

    Now it may well be the case some of the students are overly idealistic or naive in their aims, but their sense of anger and frustration at the perceived injustices of HK's society is all too real (i.e. the widening rich-poor gap) . The pro-establishment not only fail to listen but willful refusal to listen exacerbate this divide.

    Anywhere else in the civilized world, if there is such yawning gap, there will be serious questions raised as to the governance arrangement of that society. But no, in HK, its all about "foreign manipulation" poisoning the youth's minds with dangerous ideas like "democracy".

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    Quote Originally Posted by threesummers:




    Fanny Law: A friend told me recently more people have emigrated, they are not afraid of the Communist Party, but rather they are afraid of young people.


    Joshua Wong: Please tell your friend, you can emigrate to a place with no Communist Party, but you can't emigrate to a place without young people.
    One of the young people that apparently people are afraid of:



    Sleeping on the streets for Occupy Central while studying for the DSE | Young Post | South China Morning Post
    Last edited by drumbrake; 23-11-2014 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cho-man:

    Anywhere else in the civilized world, if there is such yawning gap, there will be serious questions raised as to the governance arrangement of that society. But no, in HK, its all about "foreign manipulation" poisoning the youth's minds with dangerous ideas like "democracy".
    You fail to see that it should be 'anywhere else in the civilised world which are in a democracy....'

    HK is still part of a communist country, rules and ways in a democracy need not apply here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proplus:
    You fail to see that it should be 'anywhere else in the civilised world which are in a democracy....'

    HK is still part of a communist country, rules and ways in a democracy need not apply here.
    Yes, technically true, HK belongs to a communist country, but that is far from the whole story.

    HK actually is a sort of political netherworld, a twilight zone with the trappings of western notions of free speech and fundamental freedoms, yet denied the right to their citizens the ability to elect their leaders through the ballot box (save for a select few).

    HK is therefore a sort of political freak. Not really "communist" but not really "Western" in the democratic sense. It is neither. Until recently, the fiction created by Beijing and the HK government was that HK could carry on with this bizare arrangement for the foreseeable future with no need for change, for everyone is happy with this. Evidently, that is not true.
    Last edited by Cho-man; 23-11-2014 at 10:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cho-man:
    Yes, technically true, HK belongs to a communist country, but that is far from the whole story.

    HK actually is a sort of political netherworld, a twilight zone with the trappings of western notions of free speech and fundamental freedoms, yet denied the right to their citizens the ability to elect their leaders through the ballot box (save for a select few).

    HK is therefore a sort of political freak. Not really "communist" but not really "Western" in the democratic sense. It is neither. Until recently, the fiction created by Beijing and the HK government was that HK could carry on with this bizare arrangement for the foreseeable future with no need for change, for everyone is happy with this. Evidently, that is not true.
    This is what Westerners and the youngsters of HK thinks what HK is, but in reality, it is still part of China, and has the '2 systems for 50 years' under the ruling of the CCP. In effect, a false Westernized free region.

    IMO, China viewed HK (before Occupy) as a 'beta' program, one that if they saw successful, would have been the model in which the communist regime move towards, benefiting the other regions of China, with ones more slowly than others to change. Look at Shanghai, and you can see so much of HK's methods put to use.

  7. #7
    David Smith
    Quote Originally Posted by Proplus:
    HK is still part of a communist country, rules and ways in a democracy need not apply here.
    I think you are talking about what HK is, rather than what is supposed to be, so in that sense you are right.

    However, in theory, according to the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law, the communist system does not apply in HK and the rules and laws of the mainland don't apply in HK either. I understand the sensitivity about foreign influence, for historical reasons, but it does irk me when democracy is denounced as a foreign influence. Communism is a foreign influence too - it was invented in Germany and entered China through Russian. Most early Chinese communist texts were translated directly from Russian.

    You may be right about HK having been intended as a model for the future of China, by a liberal wing of the CCP. What aspects of HK do you see in Shanghai though? Other than that both are modern, they strike me as rather different places.

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    Some of yesterday's harassment of Scholarism

    Po Lam MTR
    - water projectiles/2 guys take about 300 Scholarism leaflets (Scholarism follows them)




    Tai Po MTR - surrounded by anti's

    Last edited by threesummers; 24-11-2014 at 09:04 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by threesummers:
    Po Lam MTR
    - water projectiles/2 guys take about 300 Scholarism leaflets (Scholarism follows them)




    Tai Po MTR - surrounded by anti's
    Hopefully there will be condemnation from the CE's office for this intimidating behaviour which goes against HK's core values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Proplus:
    This is what Westerners and the youngsters of HK thinks what HK is, but in reality, it is still part of China, and has the '2 systems for 50 years' under the ruling of the CCP. In effect, a false Westernized free region.

    IMO, China viewed HK (before Occupy) as a 'beta' program, one that if they saw successful, would have been the model in which the communist regime move towards, benefiting the other regions of China, with ones more slowly than others to change. Look at Shanghai, and you can see so much of HK's methods put to use.
    Well, I don't think anyone here has actually denied the fact HK is part of China. That is not the issue. The issue is what HK people want as part of China, their aspirations, not so much what HK is at the moment.

    As for Shanghai, I think it is still far from HK. Yeah, the gap has closed significantly, but there is still a big gap between the two places. Shanghai might have incorporated parts of Hong Kong as a model. And in some aspects, it has grown ahead of HK (i.e. busiest port in the world etc) but in other aspects (rule of law, government transparency, corruption etc) HK is still far ahead.

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