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Is your god guiding you like Ms Lam?

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  1. #31

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    As an "out and proud" Christian, yes I do believe that God guides me. I don't for a minute think that that I can understand why the Immortal and Omniscient (who presumably lives outside of time and can thus see the end from the beginning without impinging on my free will or personal responsibility in the slightest) is doing so.

    Maybe God, in infinite wisdom, is guiding Carrie Lam to make an ass of herself. Who knows? Whatever, only the ultimate judgment can tell.
    (if you prefer the karma theory, what sort of people might the current inhabitants of HK have been previously??)

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  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy:
    But the problem is, some actually go against what they profess to believe and have no problem about it one bit. That's the real issue.
    First of all, no one knows except themselves whether they have problems reconciling their actions and their beliefs. Second, all human beings do this on a daily basis, it's only a matter of degree. At one extreme, you have religious people murdering others, you have priests molesting children and on the softer side, you have maybe a muslim having a glass of wine or a christian skipping mass. Being religious does not in itself make a person good or bad and reconciling our actions with our morals or beliefs is something everyone on this planet struggles with on a daily basis. And as I said, people use religion for what they need, sometimes for good, sometimes not.

    There are people who seem to want to target religious people and hold them to higher standards because of it. That may be fair enough if that person is using religion to legitimize actions or pretend to be guided by a higher power but in most cases, it shouldn't have anything to do with the value of that person no more so than if a religious person implies that an atheist is more likely to be bad. I find it unfair to automatically label someone as good or evil because they belong to a particular group religious or otherwise. We all have the capacity to do both depending on circumstances.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramis:
    I find it unfair to automatically label someone as good or evil because they belong to a particular group religious or otherwise. We all have the capacity to do both depending on circumstances.
    Yes, but we are not talking about your average joe here, but political leaders whose decisions have consequences on the rest of society. This disconnect between their values and their action is not just an academic discussion but has real world impact.

    And I'm not making the argument that anyone is good or evil based on their religious beliefs. I'm talking about the gulf between their professed beliefs and their real behaviour. Yes no one is ideal. Heck even a saint like Mother Teresa was not perfect and attracted her share of criticism, but at least she was trying to apply her faith through her action. Carrie Lam...someone who received teritary education should know what they are doing and the impact they will have. I just wonder how she sleeps at night. I suppose one can justify almost anything as a coping mechanism. But what's happening to HK seems too glaring for her to make excuses for. What kind of mental leaps of logic does she perform each time she opens her mouth to the press?

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy:
    Yes, but we are not talking about your average joe here, but political leaders whose decisions have consequences on the rest of society. This disconnect between their values and their action is not just an academic discussion but has real world impact.

    And I'm not making the argument that anyone is good or evil based on their religious beliefs. I'm talking about the gulf between their professed beliefs and their real behaviour. Yes no one is ideal. Heck even a saint like Mother Teresa was not perfect and attracted her share of criticism, but at least she was trying to apply her faith through her action. Carrie Lam...someone who received teritary education should know what they are doing and the impact they will have. I just wonder how she sleeps at night. I suppose one can justify almost anything as a coping mechanism. But what's happening to HK seems too glaring for her to make excuses for. What kind of mental leaps of logic does she perform each time she opens her mouth to the press?
    I think very little of the that has anything to do with her professed religion. Xi claims to be a communist but I don't think he follows much of Marx or Mao.

    Do you expect politicians to be honest?

    Trump and the evangelical American right is a special very strange case study.

  5. #35

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    I don't disagree that Lam's actions leave a lot to be desired and if she sleeps well at night, she's either delusional or has a very loose moral compass. As I said before, I do feel she puts a target on her back when she invokes being guided by god because she is making an attempt at legitimizing her actions with it so she's fair game.

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  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    I think very little of the that has anything to do with her professed religion. Xi claims to be a communist but I don't think he follows much of Marx or Mao.

    Do you expect politicians to be honest?

    Trump and the evangelical American right is a special very strange case study.
    Well, I didn't say I expect politicians to be honest, did I?

    I'm more interested in the process of how they make decisions in defiance of their beliefs, religious, philosophical and otherwise. In Lam's case, she has repeatedly refer to her faith in public and how it guides her action, so its entirely legitimate to examine that aspect.

    Btw, you can argue Lam is not really a politician. She's a bureaucrat who was thrusted into this position. She did not earned this position like a normal politician would. That has affected her decision-making too I suspect.
    Last edited by Coolboy; 25-05-2020 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrgoodkat:
    I am vehemently against religion and don't understand how people can do science related jobs like being a doctor and still believe in some magic fairy tale. Those two things are mutually exclusive in my opinion. I would love to see freedom of religion changed to mean you won't get arrested for practicing your mumbo jumbo in private, but have it banned from public. No religions symbols or exemptions of any kind in public. No teaching of religions in schools, no tax free status, no church bells or crosses, no prayer rooms in airports. It's the 21st century after all.
    Director Luo is proud of you. A GBM is waiting for collection in his office.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy:
    Well, I didn't say I expect politicians to be honest, did I?

    I'm more interested in the process of how they make decisions in defiance of their beliefs, religious, philosophical and otherwise. In Lam's case, she has repeatedly refer to her faith in public and how it guides her action, so its entirely legitimate to examine that aspect.

    Btw, you can argue Lam is not really a politician. She's a bureaucrat who was thrusted into this position. She did not earned this position like a normal politician would. That has affected her decision-making too I suspect.
    I am not sure what answer you are expecting though. I am not even sure what your question is.

    Is she a hypocrite? Yes. Do her actions clash with her belief? Yes. How does she sleep at night? Luckily I will never know

    Is she really guided by God? God knows.

    Am I offended by her saying she is guided by God? No.
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    I am not sure what answer you are expecting though. I am not even sure what your question is.

    Is she a hypocrite? Yes. Do her actions clash with her belief? Yes. How does she sleep at night? Luckily I will never know

    Is she really guided by God? God knows.

    Am I offended by her saying she is guided by God? No.
    I didn't say I was expecting some definitive answer, did I?

    Whether one should be offended by her reference to God is besides the point, I was considering the possibilities of how someone does certain horrible things while praising good moral acts that they espoused to, at some point the difference between them is so great that becomes hard to square the two. That that does not require a simple answer. I am interested in the human pysche and how it functions to justify terrible acts.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coolboy:
    I didn't say I was expecting some definitive answer, did I?

    Whether one should be offended by her reference to God is besides he point, I was considering the possibilities of how someone does certain horrible things while praising good moral acts, that does not require a simple answer. I am interested in the human pysche and how it functions to justify terrible acts.
    By justifying those actions to themselves.