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Covid-19: DIning in till 6PM for 2 people per table

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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage:
    Agree with much of what you say, except the usual trope of empty insults and 'batting an eyelid". Discussing better approaches to problems is a major way that mankind builds better societies and moves all of us forward.

    If your understanding of the differences in groups conflicting interests was as nuanced as you claim, you'd recognise that in your own arguments and not attempt to shut down opposing views.
    I agree that rational discussion and open minds regarding different points of views are more likely to result in acceptable compromises. However I don't see this often, instead it's rants and hissy fits as if what the government is doing or what someone is suggesting is the stupidest thing meanwhile pretending that their viewpoint is the intelligent, rational thing to do. Personally, particularly when it comes to this crises, I don't think that the choices people make have anything to do with intelligence, they are value based and often relate to the convenience of the person in question and all have advantages and downsides. The difference is that I think their choices are neither objectively right nor wrong and I find it annoying and arrogant when some pretend their choices are objectively "better".

    In any case, mankind is definitely not getting much out of the inane posts of people that have too much time on their hands on an internet forum and before you declare this as a personal insult, I have no problems including myself in this statement.

  2. #52

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    and officials could not 100% predict the outcome of policies
    https://twitter.com/sumlokkei...33982841495552

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramis:
    I agree that rational discussion and open minds regarding different points of views are more likely to result in acceptable compromises. However I don't see this often, instead it's rants and hissy fits as if what the government is doing or what someone is suggesting is the stupidest thing meanwhile pretending that their viewpoint is the intelligent, rational thing to do. Personally, particularly when it comes to this crises, I don't think that the choices people make have anything to do with intelligence, they are value based and often relate to the convenience of the person in question and all have advantages and downsides. The difference is that I think their choices are neither objectively right nor wrong and I find it annoying and arrogant when some pretend their choices are objectively "better".

    In any case, mankind is definitely not getting much out of the inane posts of people that have too much time on their hands on an internet forum and before you declare this as a personal insult, I have no problems including myself in this statement.
    I don't buy it, there is no such thing as truly altruistic behaviour, we can likely both agree on that, but that applies to you too - what you label as a rant or a hissy fit always seems to just happen to be a view different from your own, Funny that eh.

    As for my suggestions (e.g. compulsory mask policy when exercising) being better or not, I do believe them to be better, based on a big picture view of the pro's and con's to society as a whole and there's good evidence to support my position - but also evidence to refute it.

    Is my position purely self serving or also good for society? The fact that society seems to be following my position in exercising (pun intended) their own judgment about when they might need to wear or not, supports a wider benefit theory.

    There are other ways to protect the vulnerable than merely constraining those less vulnerable and more and more of global society is pushing for those solutions - life WILL go on.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sage:
    I don't buy it, there is no such thing as truly altruistic behaviour, we can likely both agree on that, but that applies to you too - what you label as a rant or a hissy fit always seems to just happen to be a view different from your own, Funny that eh.

    As for my suggestions (e.g. compulsory mask policy when exercising) being better or not, I do believe them to be better, based on a big picture view of the pro's and con's to society as a whole and there's good evidence to support my position - but also evidence to refute it.

    Is my position purely self serving or also good for society? The fact that society seems to be following my position in exercising (pun intended) their own judgment about when they might need to wear or not, supports a wider benefit theory.

    There are other ways to protect the vulnerable than merely constraining those less vulnerable and more and more of global society is pushing for those solutions - life WILL go on.
    Part of the problem is that you think views other than yours are opposing. I think that regardless of whether restaurants are open or not and whether there's an exception rule or not doesn't really matter.

    Clearly people are still exercising, eating, drinking and smoking without masks and I haven't heard reports of people being harassed about it and why should it be if it's done rationally. If there were an exception, it could still work fine and most would still wear masks and as pointed out, the risks outdoors are much less. Hence I see no reason to complain about it nor would I if it was different.

    Same with the restaurants being open or not, I almost always pick up food and eat outdoor, at my desk or at home. I fully understand why it's a concern with the many restaurant clusters and I also understand that many people are inconvenienced by eating outside. What is best? I don't know... Will restricting dine in reduce cases and get us back to a new normal quicker? Possibly...No one really knows. Is it better to learn to live more comfortably but be stuck for a longer period of time? It's also a choice. I would prefer if we could return to the situation we had a month ago quicker. I feel uncomfortable accepting the idea of letting people catching the disease and having a higher death toll so that I can live more comfortably. As I said, my position is that there are no good or better solutions, there are simply choices. Whatever science or data you can search will be incomplete, recent and not necessarily relevant to a given situation. They're simply excuses to defend a value based choice.

    What I oppose is often not your particular position, it's the way it is presented or stated. I don't think you're wrong but I believe that you are not right either because there is no such thing with most of the decisions that are taken when dealing with this crisis. There are simply things to agree, disagree and things that really don't matter much like whether an exception is given or not for wearing a mask when exercising.

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckster007:
    locals especially the construction workers, delivery people etc that had to sit in the open to eat their food couldn't give two shits about your issue of having to wear a mask while exercising.
    Out of interest how did they eat with their masks on anyway?

  6. #56

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    I'm going for a run in mask tonight. Let's see how hard it is.


  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by justjoe86:
    I'm going for a run in mask tonight. Let's see how hard it is.
    Been doing that for a few days now...it is hard to breathe if you're wearing one of the soft disposable surgical masks...
    ...for me, the trick was to run with those masks that have a rigid piece of string in the middle and upper part of the mask...the upper one to block the mask on your nose, the middle one so you don't "breathe it in" if you're catching breath with your mouth.

    Agree that running with both types of government-issued masks is very hard (at least for me!)
    Sage and HK_Katherine like this.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aramis:
    Part of the problem is that you think views other than yours are opposing. I think that regardless of whether restaurants are open or not and whether there's an exception rule or not doesn't really matter.

    Clearly people are still exercising, eating, drinking and smoking without masks and I haven't heard reports of people being harassed about it and why should it be if it's done rationally. If there were an exception, it could still work fine and most would still wear masks and as pointed out, the risks outdoors are much less. Hence I see no reason to complain about it nor would I if it was different.

    Same with the restaurants being open or not, I almost always pick up food and eat outdoor, at my desk or at home. I fully understand why it's a concern with the many restaurant clusters and I also understand that many people are inconvenienced by eating outside. What is best? I don't know... Will restricting dine in reduce cases and get us back to a new normal quicker? Possibly...No one really knows. Is it better to learn to live more comfortably but be stuck for a longer period of time? It's also a choice. I would prefer if we could return to the situation we had a month ago quicker. I feel uncomfortable accepting the idea of letting people catching the disease and having a higher death toll so that I can live more comfortably. As I said, my position is that there are no good or better solutions, there are simply choices. Whatever science or data you can search will be incomplete, recent and not necessarily relevant to a given situation. They're simply excuses to defend a value based choice.

    What I oppose is often not your particular position, it's the way it is presented or stated. I don't think you're wrong but I believe that you are not right either because there is no such thing with most of the decisions that are taken when dealing with this crisis. There are simply things to agree, disagree and things that really don't matter much like whether an exception is given or not for wearing a mask when exercising.
    What you've just written is that restaurant/mask policy don't really matter to you or society, in your opinion - speak for yourself only, it matters to many people and thus your assertion is inaccurate on many levels (though not all)

    It's true in the sense that ultimately the universe will come to an end in X billion years and thus everything in between is almost irrelevant but yet here we are..arguing the toss. It's untrue though because we know from countless examples in human experience that how situations are managed changes outcomes (maybe in a small way, maybe in a tiny way, and maybe in a big way) but those changes when measurable or even just perceived 'matter'. We can affect the outcomes of our future by making adjustments in the present, that is the w.h.o.l.e point of all covid policy.

    As for how the argument is presented, I don't buy that either. Nobody 's claiming there's only one way a problem can be approached and all other approaches (that vary in any way whatsoever), are therefore 'wrong', I (that's a capital I) yes me, have been the one arguing for a shades of grey understanding of reality rather than B&W.

    What you seem to blatantly miss in your last para is how disagreements are communicated - people object to a policy for their listed reasons; it's not up to me to list the benefits of said policy, that's your role as it's defender (or as devil's advocate), just because I don't laude how it makes vulnerable people feel more secure, doesn't mean to say I don't comprehend that, in fact it would be supremely arrogant of you to suggest otherwise. The very nature of debate recognises that the opposing side must have some merit otherwise the debate would be utterly meaningless from the very beginning and I would express it as such.

    It appears it's your unwillingness to grant that understanding, that leads you to make such statements.

    Ultimately it's my position that some solutions ARE better than others and whist the final outcomes might be very similar, it's incumbent on society to choose the best path they can see at the time and tweak that path as necessary (as the govt. did with the restaurant U-turn).

    I feel uncomfortable accepting the idea: Here in lies at least part of your motivation. In this sense you are not taking a neutral position at all, you have a vested interest. Does that make you selfish?

    "If it's done rationally:" The police may well be applying the policy rationally (deliberately ignoring certain aspects of it), but your very point suggests that if they followed the letter of the law they would be acting irrationally.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly on that.

  9. #59

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    It seems my own laziness has solved the problem of running in a mask so far haha. Didn't bother.


  10. #60

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    Mask styles LOL

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    NSFW
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    Eddy Mundo and Sebastien-F like this.

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