Like Tree192Likes

The PRC government is the best thing that has happened to China in the past 2 centuri

Closed Thread
Page 10 of 25 FirstFirst ... 2 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 18 ... LastLast
  1. #91

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Back in California (finally!).
    Posts
    2,079

    One more thing Football: even you must understand the huge difference between a wacked-out leader talking about someday massacring students - and one that actually does it.


  2. #92

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    4,026

    Yes, Canada has its share of skeletons as does every nation in the world. But right now in recent years if there is one rogue state in the world that defies treaties and is dangerous to world peace it is not China - it is the USA.

    It is just that googling is so easy with the top of mind issues in recent years not to mention the wiping out of the North American Indians on both sides of the North American border. Slavery in the good old USA and segregation. Nice stuff.

    PRC is far from perfect but neither are the nations we expats come from.



    We westerners tend to look at the world only through our own coloured spectacles and we don't always get it right.


  3. #93

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905

    It is very easy to judge others without looking in our own backyards. However, I doubt that too many westerners wished they had been born and raised in China.

    I have invested quite a bit of money in China's future however I have no interest in residing there.


  4. #94

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Central
    Posts
    53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Economy of scales, resources come to mind.

    and you think splitting it will be easy? how, based on what? language? ethicity? geography? a kind of long and painful process.
    If you know the history of Europe, you will know that several large Empires eventually became many small countries, with many linguistic and cultural similarities. China is much more diverse than most people understand, and that is not just pointing out the regions of the country dominated by minority people.
    dear giant likes this.

  5. #95

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HK
    Posts
    14,593
    Quote Originally Posted by jpinst:
    If you know the history of Europe, you will know that several large Empires eventually became many small countries, with many linguistic and cultural similarities. China is much more diverse than most people understand, and that is not just pointing out the regions of the country dominated by minority people.
    Sure, and if you know the history of Europe, you know that this didn't happen peacefully and at the expense of a lot of human lives (roman empire, Greek empire and more recently the 2 world wars, or the ex Yugoslavia conflict...)

    I am not saying China is great and all, just saying, if you want to split the country, you have to be ready to assume the economic and human consequences.

  6. #96

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    4,026

    The SAR type of arrangement might well be a useful model for other countries rather than fragmenting and splitting as some have on ethnic lines. There are significant benefits from the scale and size of China along with a lot of other problems.

    My point is not to try to be anti-American as I am not (but having not made this stuff I could see how it could be interpreted). I do agree with the PRC approach to foreign policy and not escalating. They are very smart when it comes to engaging abroad. It is about business and their strategic interests which is what America needs to return to. My own country Canada has squandered over CAD$20 billion in Afghanistan a mission that went from our role in hunting Osama to fighting Taliban - something that foreigners can never win at. The US war costs are some trillion and can you imagine if they put that money into developing their own people?


    If you look at how the USA is squandering billions fighting unnecessary foreign wars and how their government is powerless to stop this nonsense (or risk being seen as cowards by voters) the opposite is true of China.

    The US as of Dec 2009 spent US$1 trillion on the Iraq fighting and remember that is not the entire cost!

    http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

    If you want to know what principles were behind the Bush-Cheney administration look at this organization - The Project for a New American Century. They are gone now but the original signatories to their principles included Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz. Bush no because you had to read the document before you signed and we know George Bush Jr's approach to reading was limited.

    "The Project for the New American Century (PNAC) was an American think tank based in Washington, D.C. that lasted from early 1997 to 2006. It was co-founded as a non-profit educational organization by neoconservatives William Kristol and Robert Kagan. The PNAC's stated goal was "to promote American global leadership."[1] Fundamental to the PNAC were the view that "American leadership is both good for America and good for the world" and support for "a Reaganite policy of military strength and moral clarity."[2] The PNAC exerted influence on high-level U.S. government officials in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush and affected the Bush Administration's development of military and foreign policies, especially involving national security and the Iraq War.[3][4]"

    Project for the New American Century - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    "Statement of Principles

    PNAC's first public act was releasing a "Statement of Principles" on June 3, 1997, which was signed by both its members and a variety of other notable conservative politicians and journalists (see Signatories to Statement of Principles). The statement began by framing a series of questions, which the rest of the document proposes to answer:

    As the 20th century draws to a close, the United States stands as the world's pre-eminent power. Having led the West to victory in the Cold War, America faces an opportunity and a challenge: Does the United States have the vision to build upon the achievements of past decades? Does the United States have the resolve to shape a new century favorable to American principles and interests?[5]

    In response to these questions, the PNAC states its aim to "remind America" of "lessons" learned from American history, drawing the following "four consequences" for America in 1997:

    * we need to increase defense spending significantly if we are to carry out our global responsibilities today and modernize our armed forces for the future;
    * we need to strengthen our ties to democratic allies and to challenge regimes hostile to our interests and values;
    * we need to promote the cause of political and economic freedom abroad; [and]
    * we need to accept responsibility for America's unique role in preserving and extending an international order friendly to our security, our prosperity, and our principles.

    After the election of George W. Bush in 2000, a number of PNAC's members or signatories were appointed to key positions within the President's administration:"

    All from wiki.

    Last edited by Football16; 16-07-2010 at 09:22 AM.

  7. #97

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Back in California (finally!).
    Posts
    2,079
    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    Yes, Canada has its share of skeletons as does every nation in the world. But right now in recent years if there is one rogue state in the world that defies treaties and is dangerous to world peace it is not China - it is the USA.

    It is just that googling is so easy with the top of mind issues in recent years not to mention the wiping out of the North American Indians on both sides of the North American border. Slavery in the good old USA and segregation. Nice stuff.

    PRC is far from perfect but neither are the nations we expats come from.



    We westerners tend to look at the world only through our own coloured spectacles and we don't always get it right.
    Football, what the Hell is supposed to be your point?

    That sometimes nations do the wrong things and make mistakes? No shit. None of this has anything to do with the thread. I told you if you want to start an America-bashing thread, I would be only too happy to participate.

    To call the US a 'rouge nation' in a world with North Korea, Iran, Russia, and the PRC is simple posing. I am afraid your baby-boomer grey hairs are showing. Americans expect to be resented somewhat, especially by Canadians (particularly since Canada has the ability, protected as it is by the US, to play global 'nice guy') but get a clue.

    The issue here is whether a murderous dictatorship is providing a historically great government without the rule of law or an opposition. Please discuss.

    If you want to start a thread about the PNAC, or some other unrelated issue, please go ahead. But don't try to defend a dictatorial and muderous regime amd muddy the waters by attacking another country whose flaws are, by comparison, mere blemishes.
    Last edited by Freetrader; 16-07-2010 at 10:34 AM.
    Gatts, paenme, Boris and 1 others like this.

  8. #98

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    4,905

    I certainly wouldn't describe the current chinese government a dictatorial murderous regime, that kind of epithet is more suitable to Pol Pot than Hu Jintao

    Nor would I consider the US misdeeds mere blemishes compared to what China has done. One very large difference is that most of China's misdeeds have been done locally whereas the US has been messing up globally.

    However, I have to agree that pointing out US flaws doesn't serve in any way in defending the government in China.


  9. #99

    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Back in California (finally!).
    Posts
    2,079
    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    I certainly wouldn't describe the current chinese government a dictatorial murderous regime, that kind of epithet is more suitable to Pol Pot than Hu Jintao

    Nor would I consider the US misdeeds mere blemishes compared to what China has done. One very large difference is that most of China's misdeeds have been done locally whereas the US has been messing up globally.

    However, I have to agree that pointing out US flaws doesn't serve in any way in defending the government in China.
    I would be interested in learning the great crimes the US is committing globally, but I won't try to defend the US government here, and will save that for the anti-American thread to be started by someone at a later date. I will note that "mere blemishes" was by comparison with the PRC, not objectively. The scaling by comparison is apt since, as Stalin noted, one death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic.

    It has been noted before, but I will say it again - the CCP has been in power in China for 60 years. It's current rulers are complicit in the crimes of the previous governments. Since there is no opposition, there is no potential for a disavowal of former policies. However, even if one accepts the premise that the current leaders are innocent of past wrongs, there is still the current wrongs to consider. For example, you have North Korea, which is a place of horrors that most of us can't even imagine, but which is financed, supported, and defended on the world stage by the great and uncorruptable leadership of the PRC. I would assume you are no fan of the Kim regime. The question is, is the CCP not complicit in the crimes of Kim Jong Il?

    Oh, since I'm on the subject on Korea, you can see great evidence of the terrible crimes of the US on the other side of the border, in the prosperous, free, and democratic ROK. It's a bit gratuitous to mention, I know, but since you mentioned how the US is committing great global crimes, I just thought I would point out the stark contrast of the two nations' respective 'client states'.
    Last edited by Freetrader; 16-07-2010 at 11:25 AM.
    paenme and dear giant like this.

  10. #100

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HK
    Posts
    14,593
    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    I would be interested in learning the great crimes the US is committing globally,
    Not my intention to enter into the debate on US / China but here 2 at least come immedialety to mind: IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.

Closed Thread
Page 10 of 25 FirstFirst ... 2 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 18 ... LastLast