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The PRC government is the best thing that has happened to China in the past 2 centuri

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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Not my intention to enter into the debate on US / China but here 2 at least come immedialety to mind: IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.
    This isn't the thread for it, but I will be happy to discuss these issues should you care to (but you had better be careful, since the Afghan war was started by an attack on the US to which NATO voted, unanimously, to respond to). So if you are going to attack the US on that one, you have a long slog explaining how the US is different from the 18 or so other NATO countries. You will then want to enumerate the terrible crimes the US has separately committed and then explain how much better off Iraq and Afghanistan were under their previous leaders. I will be happy to discuss this with you on another thread.

  2. #102

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    First it's ridiculous to condemn the current leadership for crimes of the past. Second, China's support for North Korea is simply politics which the US engages on a daily basis. May I remind you that the US was a great supporter of Saddam Hussein when it was convenient to do so because he was opposing Iran. The US was also furnishing the same Taliban that they are now fighting with weapons when it was convenient since they opposed the Russians.

    Yet, I wouldn't say it's Obama's fault that the US invaded Iraq. It seems he's somewhat trying to extricate himself from these delicate positions just as the chinese government is trying to move forward from the mistakes that were made in the past.

    In terms of world politics, I'd say the US is a greater problem than China but at the end of the day, both countries are out to protect their interest, it just happens that the US has its fingers in more pies than China.

    However, I'd still prefer to live in the US than in China. Neither are anywhere near the top of my list but there's more work to do in China to make it appealing as a place of residence for its citizens.


  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    This isn't the thread for it, but I will be happy to discuss these issues should you care to (but you had better be careful, since the Afghan war was started by an attack on the US to which NATO voted, unanimously, to respond to). So if you are going to attack the US on that one, you have a long slog explaining how the US is different from the 18 or so other NATO countries. You will then want to enumerate the terrible crimes the US has separately committed and then explain how much better off Iraq and Afghanistan were under their previous leaders. I will be happy to discuss this with you on another thread.
    Remove Afghanistan from the list if you want as it is a more complicated war I agree.

    You still have IRAQ. A war without ANY justification. The END (ie the Iraqis are "supposedly" better of without Saddam) does not justify the fact that the US went there illegally (and are still there).

  4. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Remove Afghanistan from the list if you want as it is a more complicated war I agree.

    You still have IRAQ. A war without ANY justification. The END (ie the Iraqis are "supposedly" better of without Saddam) does not justify the fact that the US went there illegally (and are still there).
    OK, as I said, we can discuss some other time whether or not there wasn't "ANY" justification for it (which is also a different argument than whether or not it was a good idea).

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    However, I'd still prefer to live in the US than in China. Neither are anywhere near the top of my list but there's more work to do in China to make it appealing as a place of residence for its citizens.
    Gilleshk: You apparently believe that the current leadership in China shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, and you equate support for North Korea, with, say, US support for Western Europe during the Cold War. I can't say I agree. In any case the facts are rather different and certainly more subtle than you present; however, that is a topic for a different thread.
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  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Not my intention to enter into the debate on US / China but here 2 at least come immediately to mind: IRAQ and AFGHANISTAN.
    Just to remind you that these are UN mandated actions ( rightly or wrongly but true all the same ) so have the voted support from all of us via our elected representatives through what ever system is accepted in our respective country. Please don't come back with " well I didn't vote for it " because it's an invalid statement. You did by association.

    To comment on what others have said in other threads.

    The internal machinations of the Chinese government never get a chance to be voted on by truly elected representatives, no matter how much people point out that some local councils are elected. As internal actions they are not subject to international protection and they know it. Attempts at any sort of justice are met with unwavering force, one way or another. Got trouble in Tibet? Just close all the roads with police. What trouble? Its all lies and exageration. We live in an harmonious society. etc etc. Buy some more dollars in treasury notes - make the lowei happy.

    When in real terms the people LOVE the army and HATE the police with a passion you know where the real power of the state comes from and China's use of this system goes back centuries. Millennia even. Mao new a good thing when he saw it.

    Does one have to already remind people of the " Free speech area " in Beijing during the Olympics. The bureaucracy for using it was immense and the required attendance at the relevant ministry to present your application, resulted in the applicant disappearing, rather than using this " right " to free speech.

    Knock the US all you want but you can demo your heart out and have a billion ways of getting your message heard. The UK for all those vilifying its colonial past when gunboats where the norm, has had Speakers Corner since 1872, not just the famous one in Hyde Park but in many places, which has been copied in many countries. We also gave the world a Parliament of Commoners and the Two Chamber oversight system used the world over by free societies. Through this we made a National Health System free at point of use and Abolished Slavery and caused the world to follow.

    The so called oppressive colonialism -- well that has, for the British Empire, morphed into an international friendship community called the Commonwealth because we, as a nation, gave the countries back to their inhabitants and always in a much better state than when we arrived. Only afterward did the locals F*** it up, in some cases. So was colonialism SO bad in all cases. Go ask the people if Zimbabwe if they would like us back.

    Political power is projected and has been by governments, since ( basically ) the instigation of armies with horses, making them mobile with an extended reach. But life at home , even in the Roman empire was always to treat its citizens well. Slavery - I hear you say, well that's been around for ever and still exists with exploitation of those not considered citizens for the good of citizens. It has no relevance to the untold and shameless exploitation with " slavery by edict " that exists in the PRC, which tries to project, by its wealth and influence, as being an emerging modern society. Just because you have a house and a car doesn't make you modern.

    If it was SO good then why do the vast majority of those studying abroad, stay there. If the streets of China are paved with gold surely they would rush home to fill their pockets. No - thought not.

    The guy who started the thread is conspicuous by his absence because he can see he has comprehensively lost his argument as posted. All the bitching about this country, that country , this system, that system is resulting in what??? Just a lot of Google Facts being pulled out to support what in essence is -- just life, history and the learning of man.

    For good people, what we did wrong yesterday we try to make better tomorrow. For cowards with power that is conveniently forgotten and becomes like a volcano. History teaches us this and people should read more of it.
    Last edited by Boris; 16-07-2010 at 12:29 PM.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Gilleshk: You apparently believe that the current leadership in China shouldn't be held accountable for their actions, and you equate support for North Korea, with, say, US support for Western Europe during the Cold War. I can't say I agree. In any case the facts are rather different and certainly more subtle than you present; however, that is a topic for a different thread.
    Wow, where did I even mention western Europe and the Cold war? I equated China's support of NK with the US support of Hussein and the Taliban. How are the facts so different may I ask?

    I never said that the current leadership should not be held accountable for their current actions simply that you can't blame Hu Jintao and his cronies for what Mao did for example just as I wouldn't blame Obama for the invasion of Iraq.

    BTW Boris, the invasion of Iraq was not supported by the UN, it was and is not supported by the majority of US citizens who finally had their say several years later and voted Bush out of office. Of course, it's not easy to get yourself out of such a mess so Obama is stuck with his predecessors decision just as the PRC is can be held back with the errors of the past.

  8. #108

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    it was and is not supported by the majority of US citizens who finally had their say several years later and voted Bush out of office.

    ************************************************** **

    George W. Bush was NOT voted out of the office by voters; he had served the 8 year max allowable terms. What really surprised me was that he actually won the re-election in 2005. Remember one of the London's newspapers had this headline........"How can XX,XXX,XXX people be so stupid?"

    Last edited by Renotommy; 16-07-2010 at 02:14 PM.
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  9. #109

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    FYI
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  10. #110

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    WCLUK:

    Oops sorry.....after 5 years and 7 months that was the best my memory could do. Well, the consolation is that at least there were LESSER dummies in the USA than I thought. No, I did NOT vote for Bush even though I am a Republican.

    Last edited by Renotommy; 16-07-2010 at 02:08 PM.

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