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The PRC government is the best thing that has happened to China in the past 2 centuri

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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzerman:
    Yes, there are plenty of examples of oppressiveness. OK

    But at the end of the day it was the Mainland government who bled and lost limbs to unite China. They were the ones who fought and bled to unite China, Long March and all; while you were sitting at home being an armchair critic eating your big mac getting fat. This is a ridiculous statement and irrelevant. Putting aside the fact that none of us were even alive during the long march, and I'm not Chinese, my relatives were mostly fighting the Japanese in a war that was in essence fought to free China (a war that the CCP did little, if anything, to pursue).

    They did the work. They paid the price in blood. You did nothing except logging onto the internet to criticise.Well, I'm sorry - I guess if I am not a member of the CCP I have no right to an opinion.

    And it was also them who opened the doors to foreign investment and brought china out of its isolationist policy which lasted for 200 years. You could say the mainland government saved China from another few centuries of disorder and poverty.I agree that is something of an achievement - after 30 years of economic disaster.

    Look at next door in India. You have pluralistic democracy. But the Indians are lagging very far behind China in advancement and standard of living. I would take living in Shanghai over Mumbai anyday. True. But India doesn't have labor camps full of political prisoners


    Is that any better than what has happened in the history of China? Not to me. Over the 100 years of British rule in Hong Kong, was there any elections or democracy? No. Hong Kong has always had something even more important than democracy - something the CCP can't understand - it has an indepedent judiciary and the rule of law. Or were the millions of refugees who fled China for HK over the years operating under some kind of delusion?

    It is naive of one to expect the development of China to go smoothly without any kinks. But at the end of the day, did they stick it in, pay the price and get the job done? Pay what price? The CCP has simply enriched itself and its cronies through legal and illegal corruption? That's like saying "David Cameron has paid the price - so you can't criticize him" - ridiculous.

    I would say they did.

    If they were to put you in charge of just a small city in Guangdong, I doubt you would last a week Boris. He could if he had a secret police and ability to silence anyone who criticized him
    So, buzzerman, who the Hell are you? You sign up for Geoexpat and immediately post a great propaganda piece for the PRC? Do you have another name? Skyhook maybe?
    Last edited by Freetrader; 15-07-2010 at 10:06 AM.
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  2. #22

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    any tibetans out there that would like to comment on the 'United China' issue? or Uyghurs?

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  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by dumbdonkey:
    any tibetans out there that would like to comment on the 'United China' issue? or Uyghurs?
    Any freedom of speech bloggers? Falun Gong members?
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  4. #24

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    buzzerman, arnt you the one who had asked about renouncing Chinese citizenship?

    found it
    Last edited by dumbdonkey; 15-07-2010 at 10:21 AM.
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  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by buzzerman:
    But at the end of the day it was the Mainland government who bled and lost limbs to unite China. They were the ones who fought and bled to unite China, Long March and all; while you were sitting at home being an armchair critic eating your big mac getting fat.

    They did the work. They paid the price in blood. You did nothing except logging onto the internet to criticise.

    And it was also them who opened the doors to foreign investment and brought china out of its isolationist policy which lasted for 200 years. You could say the mainland government saved China from another few centuries of disorder and poverty.
    Well so many factual inaccuracies I don't know where to start. The birth of modern day China began with San Yat-sen.

    Any blood lost by communists was certainly not with the aim of helping China, their avoidance of the Japanese at any cost was evidence of that. Instead they left that to the KMT with their one action against the Japanese - the individual action of Lin Bao - never repeated after Mao cracked down hard on it. The Long March, another source of great fantasies, was anything but. Most performed with Mao in a sedan chair it was a tactical manouver by Mao to get rid of enemies or other potential leaders. Itself cost many lives in other communist divisions. Battles such as that widely written about at Luding Bridge were just fantasies and propaganda.

    As for foreign investment, well that was already coming back in the 1940's. It was actually cut off by Mao who then tried to make China a superpower with the disastrous Great Leap Forward and further down the line the Cultural Revolution which was more about consolidating his power.

    So the argument is actually that rather that the enabled it the communist party put China back by 30 years - actually would be more than that considering Mao's policies at the time.

    So no, China was not united by the commies. It was brutally oppressed and the party was responsible for between 30 - 80 million deaths (no one knows the real figure and never will). Only in the past 30 years has it began it's move forward but even that has been slow compared with others, South Korea being a prime example - and that only moved forward after democracy.

    So to surmise, the Communist party held China back. In fact it put it back decades. It did not unite, it held by the balls. It's social experiments failed spectacularly. Only by releasing it's grip did the country move forward and still, now, there is an underlying simmering of the masses that could erupt at any time. Stable it is not.

  6. #26

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    Most naive thing I've read in a long time. While mollified by the OP's non-threatening tone, let's not blind ourselves to the nature of the regime he's endorsing. Plus there's a lot of 12-year-old thinking present here.

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  7. #27

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    Putting all the BS aside, one thing is true, in the last 10/15 years few other economies have developed as fast as China, this is of course not due only to the PRC but them opening the rules a little surely has helped.

    Rule of law, freedom of speech, are all part of the process and will come sooner or later. You CANNOT open a country that was closed for so long in ONE GO. It has to be done STEP by STEP. That is what China is doing everyday. The West may complain it is too slow, true it ain't fast but China was so deep in the shit just 30 years ago that they have a long road ahead and are tackling issues once after the other.

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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Putting all the BS aside, one thing is true, in the last 10/15 years few other economies have developed as fast as China, this is of course not due only to the PRC but them opening the rules a little surely has helped.

    Rule of law, freedom of speech, are all part of the process and will come sooner or later. You CANNOT open a country that was closed for so long in ONE GO. It has to be done STEP by STEP. That is what China is doing everyday. The West may complain it is too slow, true it ain't fast but China was so deep in the shit just 30 years ago that they have a long road ahead and are tackling issues once after the other.
    Mat, you have a very valid argument, and I certainly agree that things could be, and have been, much worse. Of course, China was deep in the shit because of the same government that we are hopefully relying on to open things up. The arguments you muster could be, and have been, used by any tyrant to justify their policies of repression. That said, I too am hopeful, but am not sure I will actually live to see a day when the CCP peacefully renounces power, develops an indepedent judiciary, etc., all of which are required for China to become a truly modern state.
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  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Mat, you have a very valid argument, and I certainly agree that things could be, and have been, much worse. Of course, China was deep in the shit because of the same government that we are hopefully relying on to open things up. The arguments you muster could be, and have been, used by any tyrant to justify their policies of repression. That said, I too am hopeful, but am not sure I will actually live to see a day when the CCP peacefully renounces power, develops an indepedent judiciary, etc., all of which are required for China to become a truly modern state.

    Indeed, the pace of opening needs now to get slighlty faster. They have shown they are willing to open (to a certain extend) economically, financially, but the rest is still lagging behind.

    HK will be a sort of Guinea Pig and it will be interesting in the next 10/15 years to see what happens.

    Another thing that may, slowly but surely, force them to open is their financial markets. At some point they will have to open more and more to the world, and that means they will also have to be more open to the world scrutinizing them.

    Claiming that the Party is the best thing that ever happen in the last 200 years is plain naive. They were rutheless and unefficient. They seem to have learn (somehow) from the past and the past 20 years have shown signs of opening. I am hopefull for the future, because China has a lot to offer (if it wants to) to the world.

    The transition from a fully state control country to a more open country is a very interesting thing to see.

    The tears of Wien Jiabao during the 09 Earthquake in Sichuan (and the simple fact that he even went there and shared with the ppl) is a very new thing in China. This is american/europan politics, not china politics.

    Rule of law and freedom of speech have to follow at some point.
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  10. #30

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    As with everything involving the CCP, it is a process of two steps forward, two back...

    Beijing starts gating, locking migrant villages - Associated Press

    BEIJING – The government calls it "sealed management." China's capital has started gating and locking some of its lower-income neighborhoods overnight, with police or security checking identification papers around the clock, in a throwback to an older style of control. So far, gates have sealed off 16 villages in the sprawling southern suburbs, where migrants are attracted to cheaper rents and in some villages outnumber permanent residents 10 to one.

    Everything in China belongs to "the People" and nothing does..

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