If China had a free press, those schools in Sichaun that killed thousands of kids would never have been so shoddily built - or if it were revealed after the fact, those guilty would be exposed. There are thousands of other examples. It's not for nothing that the Brits always allowed a free press even where they didn't allow democracy. Where a free press exists, some kind of representive government will eventually develop.
So, I think we should make nice at this point - I am not saying that there needs to be a full democracy in China tomorrow (not that that is going to happen anyway). But I do think the CCP is on the brink of missing their chance to be possibly seen, historically, as on balance a force for good in Chinese history. One might even argue that after the chaos of the Cultural Revolution, a strong hand was needed for a whole generation. Fair enough. But they need to start bending before they start to create the kind of dissent that they are so afraid of, and which currently, doesn't exist all that much in China.
As for Football, well, I'm sorry, but I really don't know what you are on about any more. Once you start down the 'you are an American so your opinion doesn't matter' road, I don't know if there is anything much to discuss. In any case, there is nothing particularly American about my views, although my opinions clearly owe something to my Western-liberal background and values. I still think that human rights are universal...if that is an "American" value, so be it.
I can tell he sees a much larger picture of what this argument is about. He doesn't brainlessly assume democracy is the way but challenge people and asks "What does democracy bring that prosperity doesn't? Is it so much of an advantage that there is a need to create chaos in China in its immediacy?"
The thing I liked most about football is that he sees both perspectives hence clearer than others here. I appreciate people who has this ability. I appreciate his loyalty to the Chinese, and I also appreciate people in the West who are loyal to their own country (ie. kensingtongome w/ US
). I like people like these because they make attempts to constructively debate fairly but show non-excessive, humanistic touch of loyalty.
And then there are the people who comes from neutral countries. Those who were not exposed to brainwashes that the western media do so very much. You can sense they have zero intent to take stabs at countries they are not born in and not as familiar with because the media in their country doesn't take stabs at other countries. Some are even offering suggestions. Amazing people.
I'm frugal with the "like" w/ all your posts because the 'like' system are too often misused as a means to scratch people's back. I prefer to read it and agree silently unless the post are being unjustly suppressed, like the one football posted.
What I don't appreciate are those who get satisfaction out of "taking you down" or "defeating you". How they tend to do it is cite single weakness in someone's post through carefully manipulation of their posts in various ways and talk about that weakness to 'take them down' instead of focusing on the main points of their arguments, thus made attempts to discredit others while they themselves did not need to confront a single thing. If they felt they need to make a point, instead of seeing things from a wide knowledge base through years of reading and thinking, they lazily resort to the talking points from the US media, or they find a hole they can punch others in AND THEN Google these so called evidence. These behaviors conjures up in my mind rats. Hides in day light and comes out in the dark.
Last edited by Creative83; 13-04-2011 at 10:38 AM.
Actually, Creative, I don't recall Football's post being 'surpressed' as you put it. Supression of speech is something they do in the PRC. Football is free to speak his mind here, as he wouldn't be up North. I am free to retort; I don't have the right to shut Football up, or kill him, as I would if I were the Beijing government. See the difference?
If you think someone has 'lazily resorted to talking points from the media' please point that example out, as I would love to see your example. (BTW - I don't want to pick on poor football here, but he seems to be the only one who is constantly bringing in irrelevant news pieces into this discussion). For yourself, you repeat the lie that freeing the press and a few dissidents would cause 'chaos' in China. I don't know which is worse - that you would actually believe that, or if you really are smarter than that, but are simply repeating that canard to advance the interests of the CCP.
I certainly don't want to get personal, but based on your posts so far, I believe and hope that you really don't understand what any of this is about. Everyone on this thread wants good things fo the Chinese, from me, to Moving, to The Brit, to Football; the issue is how to go about improving things for China. To argue otherwise, to argue that the debate itself is bad for China is, of course, exactly what the Communist Party of the People's Republic of China wants foolish people to believe.
I am dissappointed that Moving07 apparently agrees with your point of view - I thought that she, at least, understood that the CCP and the Chinese people are not one and the same.
Btw, Creative, I am not a rat. I am quite easy to find. What about you?
I agreed with Creative's post because I thought he (or she) had captured some really interesting points, particularly the discussion about how the debate is handled on here. I also don't think it's a lie to say that there is a RISK that freeing the press and freeing dissidents would create chaos - it may, it may not - it's certainly a risk. If i were in charge, I can see how I might be worried about that risk (hence the earlier debate about doing is slower and in steps).
I also agreed with Creative that Football has some great, wide and useful perspectives. I can possibly agree with you that some of the US references leave me cold though! But we each debate in our own style.
And I do agree with the implication that Creative makes that the US brainwashes it's own people to think that the US way is the only way. "Brainwashing" may not be the right word, but to be honest, some of the ways you debate make me feel like I am debating with somebody who is just as brainwashed about the benefits of democracy as those in China who have been brainwashed about the benefits of socialism!
So - yes - I liked his (or her) post. I liked it alot.
Freetrader, this part of creative's post is very true though
How they tend to do it is cite single weakness in someone's post through carefully manipulation of their posts in various ways and talk about that weakness to 'take them down' instead of focusing on the main points of their arguments, thus made attempts to discredit others while they themselves did not need to confront a single thing
You may not be using it (have not read the whole thread) but our friend G is more than addicted to this practice.