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How would you improve China?

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  1. #131

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    Try to stay focused, Football - please explain your support for i.) a controlled press, ii.) the jailing and execution of dissidents, and iii.) the notion that only the CCP can hold the 3000-year-old Chinese state together. Go ahead.

    __------

    In China, they do control the press. That is not a hidden thing. How is modern China just over 60 years old now 3000 years old? The more you dig, the deeper from reality you get.

    How free is the press in the USA? It is very well known that journalists and entire major media in the USA are fully free to get on board whatever side they want to cheer on in the USA and have in very recent years.

    The conservative WorldNetDaily that was kept out of covering the US Congress as it was online and right wing had this to say in 2010. Note not 50 years ago but now.

    Please note they state the US Dept of Justice is hiring its own bloggers to get out their versions of the truth much like China allegedly does. However, the PRC does not hide it what it does.

    Feds controlling media? It's been done before

    Feds controlling media? It's been done before

    Posted: January 25, 2010

    Read more: Feds controlling media? It's been done before Feds controlling media? It's been done before

    In 1948, Frank Wisner, a man with a fascinating past, was appointed director of the Office of Special Projects, the espionage and counter-intelligence branch of the Central Intelligence Agency. Later that year, Wisner established Operation Mockingbird, a program to influence the domestic American media.

    Commentary at National Review Online and American Thinker suggests that something similar is underway on the Internet and has readers concerned about the revelation that the Department of Justice has hired bloggers as propagandists and sock puppets.


    "The official government directive authorizing the "transparency" program is here."

    (but when you go to the source article you will find that the US gov't have ensured the link "here" is now broken.

    ------------

    NY Times:

    Editorial
    Twitter Tapping

    Published: December 12, 2009

    "The government is increasingly monitoring Facebook, Twitter and other social networking sites for tax delinquents, copyright infringers and political protesters. "

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/13/op...er=rss&emc=rss

    "Wired magazine reported last month that In-Q-Tel, an investment arm of the Central Intelligence Agency, has put money into Visible Technologies, a software company that crawls across blogs, online forums, and open networks like Twitter and YouTube to monitor what is being said."





    Yes, Freetrader. You are the grand protector of the Chinese denouncing the PRC. Never seen one critical comment on actions in the USA that smack of similar tactics.

    You just have your USA centric glasses on all things PRC. The good news is that the USA can sue for access - the bad news is that this has been going on to restrict freedoms of US citizens and others for a long, long time and is not ending soon.

    American Thinker Blog: DoJ hires bloggers as propagandists and sock puppets

    January 24, 2010
    DoJ hires bloggers as propagandists and sock puppets
    Clarice Feldman

    "Their job is to place "anonymous comments, or comments under pseudonyms, at newspaper websites with stories critical of the Department of Justice, Holder and President Obama."

    How ironic that this is exactly what Freetrader claims the PRC are doing on Geoexpat!

    Let the first nation without sin cast the first stone as the Christians used to say (before they realized that verse was no way to build a business).


  2. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:

    How free is the press in the USA? ....
    You must clearly be delusional if you somehow think all of this is on the level of China.
    Loz_2, Freetrader and paenme like this.

  3. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    GnR,

    No I meant the british dude.

    We can't write is full name here, else he gets all nervous and ask the moderator to remove the post.

    The same dude that talks so loudly about freedom of speech, of course....
    Of course I knew that you meant that special-someone .

    I don't know why, but, this discussion between Freetrader and Football has taken a hard right turn, or left depending upon where you looking at it from, and taken form arguments for an entirely new topic, connected, but yet a new topic.

    Football is trying to take an over all picture of this world, but, somehow his points are coming USA centric, it'd make much more sense (espcially to FT) if he could provide such examples of other countries as well.

    Freetrader, on the other hand, is trying hard to keep the embarrassing focus away from USA, and that is making his good points go bad. Everyone here agrees in toto that people of China need some more freedom of expression (press or otherwise) and better judiciary system then what we have come to know of from various sources, Geo, mainlanders, standard, SCMP, BBC, CNN, FOX and what not.

    No one, I repeat no one, and that inculdes Football/Moving/Mat/self is supporting CCP or it's human rights records, we all are, obviously, appalled by it.
    Similarly, I am sure, Freetrader doesn't support all the horrible things done by American govt, be it iraq war, guantanamo, afghanistan or any such recent incidents.

    The focus should remain how, if given a chance, things can be improved for the people of China, the living conditions, civil rights etc etc...
    Mat, MovingIn07 and Football16 like this.

  4. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatts:
    You must clearly be delusional if you somehow think all of this is on the level of China.
    I am sure Gatts, he definitely doesn't believe that, but, the point he IS making is that press in USA is also not fully free and the flow and tone of news is very probably controlled by the top guys and politicians in some way or the other.
    Of course it is all very civilised...

  5. #135

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    Quote Originally Posted by gunsnroses:
    Freetrader, on the other hand, is trying hard to keep the embarrassing focus away from USA, and that is making his good points go bad. Everyone here agrees in toto that people of China need some more freedom of expression (press or otherwise) and better judiciary system then what we have come to know of from various sources, Geo, mainlanders, standard, SCMP, BBC, CNN, FOX and what not.
    ...
    As I've stated many times, I have absolutely no problem discussing US policy. It has nothing to do with what we are currently discussing, however. I will be happy, guns, were you to start such a thread, to participate in it. I have stated this several times previously.

    However, the US is being brought up only to obscure the central issues. You are wrong when you state that "no one" here supports the CCP. Football, Hullexile, Moving (although she has backed down a bit) have all stood up for the following policy:

    - Dissidents in China should be locked up (and presumably, executed)

    - The Chinese justice system is fine

    - China should not have a free press; it should be controlled by the government.


    All the anti-US bloviating in the world cannot obscure those positions.

    Go back to Moving's first post. That is what this discussion is about. They can either state that they do NOT support these things (in which case, I agree and we have nothing to argue about - I briefly thought that Moving07 and I agreed yesterday, sadly, Moving's moment of clarity was brief), or they can explain whey they do. Bringing up issues that are both irrelevant and disproportionate does not advance this discussion.

    Please comment. Relevantly, of course.

  6. #136

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    Second round discussion: Assuming that we all agree that China should have a free press and shouldn't execute dissidents, then perhaps we can move onto the question of why exactly is China not ready for democracy when, say, Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore, and South Africa are?

    This is an issue that should only be discussed once the first set of issues, which were central to the debate, are resolved, since one can hardly have democracy without a reasonably free press and the right of dissent. Again, this is less central to Moving's first question but an issue that should arise from the first set of issues.

  7. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by limepickle:
    I love you PDLM
    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Does that mean I'll be allowed to enter your man cave?
    Guys, please get a room!

  8. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by virago:
    Guys, please get a room!
    so long as it has a chuffing great big 3D TV and a beer fridge, I'm game

    (sorry sensible people, continue your debate)

  9. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by limepickle:
    so long as it has a chuffing great big 3D TV and a beer fridge, I'm game

    (sorry sensible people, continue your debate)
    I prefer your discussion.

  10. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by virago:
    Guys, please get a room!
    Quote Originally Posted by limepickle:
    so long as it has a chuffing great big 3D TV and a beer fridge, I'm game

    (sorry sensible people, continue your debate)
    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    I prefer your discussion.
    Well, why not limepickle you do just that and we all can hang out there and drink beer and watch something controversial on that big 3d telly and discuss China, but, I must make it very clear that I am NOT bending (pun intended)...

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