How would you improve China?

HKITperson · 19-04-2011, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by TheBrit:

Have to repeat this as it encapsulates the point beautifully.

Yes, saying this one thousand times makes it true..eh?

HKITperson · 19-04-2011, 01:57 PM

Well folks it appears that some people here are advocating civil war where millions will die. Its so easy to say what can be done but i bet most of the people here have trouble controlling their own family let alone feeding a population of nearly 2 Billion.
They think its easy, just give them democracy!.... would corruption go away and people will be very happy and it will be utopia.

HKITperson · 19-04-2011, 02:01 PM

To answer the OP's question, the first thing that needs to happen is

1)Stability
2)Food
3)Education

NOT

1) Civil war
2) Instability, Starvation and famine
3) Millions dead

Once there is stability and people can make money to feed their families, the natural progression would be education. Once people have education then they will have the capacity to think.
Democracy will then come but expect at least 3 generations.

HKITperson · 19-04-2011, 02:04 PM

Actually the legitimacy of the CCP came from the people. They threw out a corrupt and murderous warlord who was brutally supressing the people which a little help of course from the Americans, British, French and Germans.

Gatts · 19-04-2011, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by HKITperson:

NOT

1) Civil war
2) Instability, Starvation and famine
3) Millions dead

Show me anyone in this thread who has advocated this.

HKITperson · 19-04-2011, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Freetrader:

In any case, NO ONE on this thread has said anything negative about the Chinese people or desires anything but their benefit; on the contrary, it is pretty self evident that those who have repeatedly expressed a concern with the civil rights of the Chinese people have a lot more reason to be taken as friends of the Chinese than those on this thread - you, Moving, English, Football, and a couple of others - who are more than happy to deprive the Chinese of their civil rights and consign them to an endless political and social purgatory because you believe that only a ruthless dictatorship can provide 'order' - provided that you don't personally have to actually live under it.

.

No one is against civil rights or democracy for the Chinese people... but NOW is simply not the right time. Most of us are practical about the current situation. China simply cannot be changed overnight and from implementing a western "plug and play" model. If you look back in history of the turmoils that surrouned any major upheavels then you know why.
China needs to develop at its own pace and its own Government knows better how to do this then someone sitting in the West.

If the Chinese Government is so bad then why do you think so many people return back there and not defect. In fact when were the last defections from China?

HKITperson · 19-04-2011, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by Gatts:

Show me anyone in this thread who has advocated this.

Not directly but by setting up the conditions for this to happen!
Let's just say if the Central Government collapses, what do you think would happen?.

We will have over 4-10M Soldiers armed to the teeth and swearing loaylty to anyone who pays them.

Remember when the Qing Government or the Kumitong collapsed?

Remember the last time someone tried to give "democracy" to China resulting in the deaths of over 20M people. Go figure why people are nervous and why this has to be done in a phased and orderly way.

China for the first time in its entire history is peaceful... just leave them alone!

Gatts · 19-04-2011, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by HKITperson:

Not directly but by setting up the conditions for this to happen!
Let's just say if the Central Government collapses, what do you think would happen?.

We will have over 4-10M Soldiers armed to the teeth and swearing loyalty to anyone who pays them.

So this would all directly happen when China stops locking away its people who speak out and allowing some free speech?

Originally Posted by HKITperson:

Remember when the Qing Government or the Kumitong collapsed?

Remember the last time someone tried to give "democracy" to China resulting in the deaths of over 20M people. Go figure why people are nervous and why this has to be done in a phased and orderly way.

Ouch, ever counted the 60 M + who died under Mao alone?

Football16 · 19-04-2011, 06:34 PM

The cold, hard reality for some on this board it seems is that China is not about to collapse into Middle East style oblivion irrespective of the history it has had nor the tactics used by the PRC leadership to stifle dissent.

I believe even Hong Kong in the 60s had some street riots but nothing like the burning in the streets of America in the '60s.

There is not just one China - it is a large, diverse country with differing ethnic groups and issues.

The other reality is that the haves in a country do not take up arms or hit the streets in revolt. As long as China keeps progressing towards to improved economic health and well being for its citizens they get further from serious problems in like in the Middle East now.

The dissidents in China are not business people and in many ways are like those who fomented the campus revolutions in the USA in the '60s - students, activists and in China's case - artists.

So many see China as a black and white - good vs evil yet will dismiss criticisms of western nations in an instant. What I am heartened by is the number of executives from Europe, USA and Australia who I speak to after many years in China or who are there now and how much they like it the mainland. One president going back to HQ wanted his family more time to finish schooling in China. So it is not all doom and gloom as some see it.

The key determinant of a health of a nation is the health of its people - meaning they need access to affordable health care. While the USA like China does not yet have public health like the USA put into the Iraq, the health care indicators for China are moving to the positive side.

A recent WHO on health care financing says that -

"Many low- and middle-income countries have shown over the past decade that moving closer to universal coverage is not the prerogative of high-income countries. For example, Brazil, Chile, China, Mexico, Rwanda and Thailand have recently made great strides in addressing all three problems described above." and "Meanwhile, it is clear that every country can do more in at least one of the three key areas."

http://www.who.int/nha/use/the_pc_2007.png
This map shows expenditures.

The point is that a nation's health even more than economic or education conditions are important determinants of the direction a nation will be headed. In other words, just like us as people. Our individual health is the most important key - not our money or education.

This is not to suggest that wealth gaps in nations are not huge risk factors - they are and definitely some parts of rural and urban China and improving their lot in life is crucial to China`s well being. In fact studies have shown that the gap between rich and poor is a determinant of key

``Research in the USA found overwhelming evidence of this... the more unequal the distribution of income, the greater the death rate. In other words, it is the gap between rich and poor, and not the average income in each state, that best predicts the death rate in each state. ["Inequality in income and mortality in the United States: analysis of mortality and potential pathways," British Medical Journal Vol. 312, April 20, 1996, pp. 999-1003.
Health, Wealth and Inequality - review of Wealth of Nations report

You also get more violence, etc and this is something that China knows too and wants to prevent. It is not just keeping guns from those who might rebel. They too the research and reality in other nations so they are doing what they can to make sure it does not happen at home. The irony is that the US allow guns but outlaw fireworks which in China wreaks a lot of havoc each CNY.