How would you improve China?

[PDLM]

1. Political reform. Political reform is not keeping pace with business & consumers as well as being outdated in modern society.
2. Social reform. Reduce the gap between rich and poor.

Unfortunately, the limited political and economic reforms undertaken so far have moved the country in the opposite direction, and hence broadly in the direction of the USA (which I assume Freetrader holds as some sort of model) which still has a significantly more skewed distribution of wealth than China. In fact you could argue that China already makes efforts to control this by trying the most blatantly corrupt people whereas the USA lets people like Blankstein (who, in my view is at least as corrupt as the people being tried in China, just in a way that is viewed as more "sophisticated") run off with their taxes.

[Mat]

These CCP zealots have their own form of paternalism - Mat is also guilty of this. They seem to believe the Chinese people are too stupid to vote, or incapable of living under any form of democracy... that they need an unelected unaccountable CCP government to tell them what to do.

Mat isn't guilty of anything since Mat did NOT voice an opinion on this thread about whether Mat agree or not with the CCP.

Stop putting words in ppl's mouth and learn how to read

I have raised one question on this thread: at what speed
I have commented on your comments on education
I have given a tiny example of what I do on a regular basis in China

but NOT ONCE did I say "the Chinese people are too stupid to vote, or incapable of living under any form of democracy"

Admit you would love me to be on the CCP side but too bad for you, I do strongly believe changes is necessary in China.

The difference is I do not call names, insult ppl and make broad statements as you do.

[MovingIn07]

it is pretty self evident that those who have repeatedly expressed a concern with the civil rights of the Chinese people have a lot more reason to be taken as friends of the Chinese than those on this thread - you, Moving, English, Football, and a couple of others - who are more than happy to deprive the Chinese of their civil rights and consign them to an endless political and social purgatory because you believe that only a ruthless dictatorship can provide 'order' - provided that you don't personally have to actually live under it.

You tell me, Hull, who is more of a friend of the Chinese - those who believe that the Chinese deserve to be treated with dignity, or those or don't? There is only one possible answer, as far as I'm concerned.

My god - you really believe that? Honestly? Then you really are a LOT more stupid than we have given you credit for. I have no doubt that myself, Hull, English (married to a local I believe) take the view that we do solely because we believe it to be in the best interests of the Chinese people - ALL the Chinese people rather than a select few that you seem to favour. You just appear to be incapable of seeing that there might be more than one side to any story; that it might be necessary to do things that restrict the rights of a few for the greater good. None of us are saying it should be this way forever and I think we'd all agree that improvements need to be made, but that China is actually doing pretty well for it's people right now and it's not unreasonable for them to want to protect the stability and economy that they have, while figuring out how to transition to something more representative over time.

[MovingIn07]

It's not about maturity. It's about what has happened during civil war in their past history. It's not an easy process either where China will suddenly become this election system. There will be different beliefs and chaotic divides.

Agree wholeheartedly with most of your post. It's not about maturity of the PEOPLE (as individuals) but it is about maturity of some of the social infrastructure needed to support democracy and rule of law as needed if people are "free" enough to have the types of freedom advocated by TheBrit and Freetrader. In other words, until you have a robust legal system, a court system that works and so on, you don't have the infrastructure to build a democracy on. China needs to strenthen these pillars first.

And they are.

When I first started working on China over 15 years ago, the common statement was "there is no law in China". Now, there is law, but it does not work very well. Over time, there will be better systems. When you have the basics, then you can build on them.

A billion individuals with no democratic structures is just a riot. That's hardly going to help anyone in China.

[TheBrit]

My god - you really believe that? Honestly? Then you really are a LOT more stupid than we have given you credit for. I have no doubt that myself, Hull, English (married to a local I believe) take the view that we do solely because we believe it to be in the best interests of the Chinese people - ALL the Chinese people rather than a select few that you seem to favour. You just appear to be incapable of seeing that there might be more than one side to any story; that it might be necessary to do things that restrict the rights of a few for the greater good.

For the greater good..... a phrase well used by the Nazi's I believe.

I am so glad the Chinese have people like M07 deciding what is best for them, rather than being allowed to choose themselves..... I wonder why the CCP pays bloggers when we have well meaning but dim sympathizers like the motley crew mentioned above to spread their propaganda for them.

[Freetrader]

My god - you really believe that? Honestly? Then you really are a LOT more stupid than we have given you credit for. I have no doubt that myself, Hull, English (married to a local I believe) take the view that we do solely because we believe it to be in the best interests of the Chinese people - ALL the Chinese people rather than a select few that you seem to favour. You just appear to be incapable of seeing that there might be more than one side to any story; that it might be necessary to do things that restrict the rights of a few for the greater good. None of us are saying it should be this way forever and I think we'd all agree that improvements need to be made, but that China is actually doing pretty well for it's people right now and it's not unreasonable for them to want to protect the stability and economy that they have, while figuring out how to transition to something more representative over time.

Oh, so now the gloves have come off, and I'm "stupid". You and Hull between you, seem to know nothing about China, and your view seems to have developed from some sort of undergraduate sociology course. YOU are the ones with the skewed views - I have lots of Chinese friends as you do who have done quite well from the current regime. But that matters little compared with the vast majority of the Chinese who in addition to being poor have little social and no political power. The fact that you can express avazement at my view simply indicates to me that you simply haven't thought very much or long about these issues, and you are just expressing an opinon that seems to be based in ignorance and wish fullfillment - just like Football's "chinese leaders are the best in the world" nonsense.

You need to grow up, Moving. If you believe in fascism - as you apparently do - that's your choice. But don't try to label those who don't either naive or anti-Chinese.

[Mat]

As often this discussion is going nowhere but downward and the name calling is at full speed.
I am truly surprised that ppl that are IBankers, making 4Mio HK a year or company owners.... are not able to develop arguments without using lame name callings. I would have thought ppl on this board were a little more "educated".

Ai Wei Wie was doing something to change China. A lots of other ppl are doing the same. But name calling on a forum certainly does not do anything for China.

I am not convinced a "western type of democracy" is the way forward for China but I am convinced some sort of democracy (not sure how to call it) should be adopted and the country should be (at a faster pace than it is currently doing) moving in that direction. Ppl should indeed be free to express their view and to choose their leaders, this I have no doubt about.

The task ahead is titanesque for the CCP: reforming the instituions to allow multiple parties, releasing its grip on medias, fighting corruption at every level of the society, developing a true rule of law...but this is not only the task of the CCP. This is the task of every single chinese who believe in their country.

I am honeslty not sure how this should be done (unless some on here I do not pretend I know everything) but I am sure any push for greater democracy, freedom of speech...cannot (only) come from the CCP, it has (and will) come from the base.

[MovingIn07]

Mat - you are quite right. I tried very hard to debate the subject rather than the people, and am ashamed that their terrible posts and naivety sent me down to their level. It is, however, pretty frustrating to see such idiotic comments by people who should otherwise be smart (otherwise how did they get here?). This could be such a good forum for an interesting debate. Who knows - perhaps there are CCP spies on here and perhaps they could learn something? But I doubt it would be anything good given the mental age of many of the participants. I give up - nobody listens anyway.

[Freetrader]

Unfortunately, the limited political and economic reforms undertaken so far have moved the country in the opposite direction, and hence broadly in the direction of the USA (which I assume Freetrader holds as some sort of model) which still has a significantly more skewed distribution of wealth than China. In fact you could argue that China already makes efforts to control this by trying the most blatantly corrupt people whereas the USA lets people like Blankstein (who, in my view is at least as corrupt as the people being tried in China, just in a way that is viewed as more "sophisticated") run off with their taxes.

Not sure why you felt it necessary to have a swipe at me or the USA but I'm game. As far as economic development goes, the CCP have done reasonably well over the past 30 years, starting from a base that couldn't have been much lower. The glaring inequality in Chinese society is not the gini score, but the difference between how rural and urban dwellers are treated, both in terms of opportunities locally, and more dismally, the hokou program, which is simply a method of apartheid. More visible and annoying to the privileged elites that those on this tread are familiar with is the outright corruption of the connected 'little emperors'.

With regard inequality, every developed society is going to have some degree of inequality. The important issues are equality of opportunity and ensuring that there is an adequate safety net for the poor. If you want absolute equality, you have Mao, who sincerely attempted to eliminate all forms of inequality and privilege and led his country through 25 years of devastating chaos and misery, leaving about 30 million dead, and no one, at any level of society, was very happy about it. If nothing else, Mao's little experiment (which he probably devised while working as a librarian at Beijing University since it was so clearly lacking in common sense) showed, once and for all, the stupidity of the communist dream. If the PRC is currently embracing a form of capitalist proto-fascism in response, one can hardly blame them.

By the way, I assume you are referring to Lloyd Blankfein? Not Blankstein. I am no particular fan either of Blackfein or of GS, but don't think it is worth discussing or at all relevant on this thread.

[Freetrader]

Mat - you are quite right. I tried very hard to debate the subject rather than the people, and am ashamed that their terrible posts and naivety sent me down to their level. It is, however, pretty frustrating to see such idiotic comments by people who should otherwise be smart (otherwise how did they get here?). This could be such a good forum for an interesting debate. Who knows - perhaps there are CCP spies on here and perhaps they could learn something? But I doubt it would be anything good given the mental age of many of the participants. I give up - nobody listens anyway.

Moving, I don't believe that I have made any personal attacks on you. I did make fun of your education, but I am sure you can handle that.

I think part of the issue here, as exemplified above, is that your inability to see that there is another possible point of view is causing you to brand all dissenting viewpoints as "idiotic" which doesn't help the level of vitriol. Trust me, the people who disagree with you have very valid and sophisticated reasons for their disagreement. For my part, I have consistently said that I respect your views, but strongly disagree, and have attempted to fairly explain what I believe are the implications of your position.