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China vs Japan on islands now

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  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    Ignoring your English which seems to be getting worse the more you morph into theBrit, only a blind person can really talk about what a blind person thinks and feels only and HIV positive person can really talk about what a HIV positive person thinks and feels. Obviously someone can speak on their behalf but they can't claim to have all the knowledge about it.
    You're not ignoring his English. In fact, you're doing the exact opposite, only trying to be smart about it by starting the sentence the way you do. This is often a sign of frustration with losing an argument, although I guess you'd have to be an argument loser to really talk about whether that is true or not

    As for the conclusion you reach, I guess only ethnic Han-Chinese (and only those born in China) can really say anything useful about China's intentions.

    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Why not
    This one I feel like I explained pretty thoroughly earlier. Japan's regional strategy has been reassurance diplomacy. Here's a good paper by Paul Midford on it (if you have access to a library/university connection you can probably download it for free). Again, it is impossible to prove with absolute certainly what motivates an actors actions. As I do hold the basic principles of structural realism to be true, I take it axiomatically that states do not act out of altruism. They can, and some times do, things that are genuinely good for others, but this is not their primary motivation for doing so. I am well aware that this is not a position safe from opposition, but in my opinion, dragging an ontological discussion into this discussions will get us nowhere.

    As for the specific motivation for Japan's gigantic ODA, it is claimed that it was to "make amends". Now, one can believe that states wants to make amends with other states because of the inherent good of the act of making amends. The way I see it (and again, this is derived from ontology), Japans principle motivations was to secure a beneficial access to the China Market, and more generally to project the new, gentle Japan to other regional powers.

    Now, I'm well aware that none of this is the kind of "evidence" that you are looking for. To prove that Japan's actions are not guided by altruism, but self-interest, one would need some kind of flat-out admittance by a substantial number of top level politicians that in fact, Japan act out of self interest. Or show that Japan made some sort of easily measurable (preferably material) gain from acting the way they did, within a reasonable time frame. Not surprisingly, politicians tend to dress up whatever policy they advocate as motivated out of the purest of sentiments. And when (or if) your main goal with a specific policy is reputational, it makes it even harder to "prove" with certainty that the suggested motivation is not the primary one.

    So yeah. I know this is not satisfactory as evidence for anyone who believes that states do not act out of self-interest, or that states some times act genuinely altruistic. I've had similar arguments with fellow Norwegians, who will not accept that a very important aim of our government's (relative) large foreign aid and international peace work is to stay relevant on the international arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Again can you justify the claim?
    About China's hatred against Japan being reciprocated, I will have to repeat myself: I have not said (nor do I argue) that there are as many Japanese (even relative to population) that hate China that there are Chinese that hate Japan. But that there are Japanese who genuinely hate China there can be no doubt about, and the groups I mentioned earlier are no historical artifact.

    My own impression, and here I must repeat that this is only my "gut feeling", is that a lot more Chinese harbor intense hatred for Japan than the other way around (same with Koreans vs Japanese). But when it comes to the Senkaku dispute, both sides display hatred that go way beyond opposition to government policies of the other state. In addition: For the comparison to more valid (i.e. in a perfect, from our scientific point of view, world) we would need another territorial disputes with the exact same importance to both states, where it was China, and not Japan, that was in control of the territory. With Japan having control already, it's not surprising that China/Taiwan have bigger and more furious turnouts to their demonstrations.
    Last edited by Dodraugen; 21-08-2012 at 09:50 PM.

  2. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    By that logic only a blind can speak on behalf of the blinds, only and HIV positive can speak for the HIV positives...
    Or mute speaking for fellow mutes, you may want to add?

  3. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpatNeighbor:
    Or mute speaking for fellow mutes, you may want to add?
    Er, mutes can't speak? Is this supposed to be ironic?

    Loving the blind speaking for the blinds. Just makes me chuckle and think "let's not bring curtains into this". (sorry Mat, it's only a typo but it made me smile).

    Crazy work week so just picking up this thread now. There's some really good information on here (I've learnt some stuff so thanks guys) and some interesting viewpoints but can we maybe tone down the aggression? Certain posters make valid points but their aggressive attitude and nasty tone negates their point of view.

  4. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodraugen:
    Again, it is impossible to prove with absolute certainly what motivates an actors actions. They can, and some times do, things that are genuinely good for others, but this is not their primary motivation for doing so. As for the specific motivation for Japan's gigantic ODA, it is claimed that it was to "make amends". Now, one can believe that states wants to make amends with other states because of the inherent good of the act of making amends.

    To prove that Japan's actions are not guided by altruism, but self-interest, one would need some kind of flat-out admittance by a substantial number of top level politicians that in fact, Japan act out of self interest.
    Perhaps self interest is a driving factor but to clearly state the actions have no altruism is surely an assumption too far and would also require access to top level politicians over several generations. The fact they were offered before the opening-up in '79 seems to suggest that they are not just to gain access to the China market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodraugen:
    About China's hatred against Japan being reciprocated, I will have to repeat myself: I have not said (nor do I argue) that there are as many Japanese (even relative to population) that hate China that there are Chinese that hate Japan.
    Agreed, you just stated that it was reciprocated but was less dramatic.

    You could of chosen many other ways in which to describe such as less mainstream, smaller in scale, only in the fringes of society, not as deep rooted, but you only compared the drama rather than the scale, depth etc. This implied to me the level and general breadth of hatred was similar but just shown in a less dramatic way. My apologies for mis-understanding your carefully chosen words.

    Verbosity and grandiloquence are good virtues for a pub type forum?

  5. #135

  6. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Verbosity and grandiloquence are good virtues for a pub type forum?
    Point taken. I'd like to blame the fact that English isn't my native tongue (narrow vocabulary makes the shotgun a more tempting choice than the precision rifle, and all that), but come to think of it, it happens in my native tongue as well. Will work on that.

  7. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by ExpatNeighbor:
    I didn't, that's why I never made any assumptions, unlike you. My point is, if you are not an American, then you have no right to speak for or in behalf of them. You can shut up now.
    Ok. Non-aggressive tone then.

    Well I did'nt claim to speak on their behalf. I am analyzing their most likely behaviour based on IR theory and logic, that's all.

    Back to topic, Chinese military folks are visiting the US over the islands:

    The unexpected visit by a senior Chinese military official to the United States is widely seen as being linked with territorial tensions in Northeast Asia, and analysts said the Diaoyu Islands issue would be discussed by the two militaries.

    Cai Yingting, deputy chief of the general staff of the People's Liberation Army, left Beijing on Monday for an official visit to the US. This is the second visit by a senior Chinese military official to the US in three months. Defense Minister Liang Guanglie paid a six-day visit to the country in May.

    Neither China nor the US announced Cai's visit in advance. He is widely believed to be talking to Washington about the escalating tension between China and Japan over the islands, to which Japan also lays claim, although it is indisputable Chinese territory.

    Cai's entourage includes several chiefs of Chinese military areas and Chen Shoumin, deputy head of the strategic planning department of the PLA General Staff Headquarters. This group is likely to work on more specific and transparent development plans for the two militaries. The South China Sea and the Diaoyu Islands are issues of common concern at the top of the discussion agenda, said Zhai Dequan, deputy secretary-general of the China Arms Control and Disarmament Association.

    On Tuesday, Washington and Japan launched a 37-day military drill in the western Pacific Ocean. An official from the Japanese Defense Ministry indicated that the drill was devised to "take back" the Diaoyu Islands, while observers said it showed Washington's military support for its ally Tokyo over the islands.

    Without the US' strategic pivot to the Asia-Pacific region, Japan would not have created so much friction over the islands, Peng Guangqian, a Beijing-based military analyst, told Xinhua News Agency.
    China is likely to raise the islands issue during Cai's visit, hoping that Washington's moves in northeast Asia will not target any third party and will instead strengthen regional stability, said Lu Yin, a researcher with the Strategic Research Institute at the National Defense University of the PLA.

    "But more importantly, I believe both sides will definitely discuss three chronic obstacles to ties between the two militaries: US arms sales to Taiwan, military surveillance close to China's coast and discriminatory regulations prohibiting certain military exchanges with China," she said.

    "Without solving these issues, bilateral military ties can hardly be boosted further."

    The development of military relations lags far behind the overall relations between the two countries, said Ni Feng, a researcher of American Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, adding that Cai's trip could reduce mistrust between both militaries.
    The PLA delegation is scheduled to visit the US army base at Fort Hood, Texas, and bases in Missouri and Hawaii, followed by the Pentagon, the Hong Kong-based Phoenix TV cited the US Department of Defense as saying on Wednesday.


    http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2...t_15699523.htm
    Last edited by Watercooler; 23-08-2012 at 05:48 PM.

  8. #138

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    SCMP One man's island, another man's dream Bonny Schoonakker Aug 24, 2012

    You might know them as the Diaoyu or the Senkaku islands, but my people call them the Bezotteneijlanden, which once sheltered our ancestor Jakobus de Pechvogel, when he lived there as a castaway 500 years ago.

    In fact, as confirmed by a search of the online databases of the Dutch East India Company, the Ming empire and the Tokugawa shogunate, Pechvogel is the first human to have survived more than 24 hours on the Bezottens, a fact of which we are in awe.

    Pechvogel landed up on the Bezottens after he was set adrift from his ship, the Vrolijke Vrijbuiter, which needed to lose ballast to compensate for a heavy cargo of spices, silks and computer components. It seems that his disputatious and stubborn nature had added to the crew's burden of living within the small confines of a wooden ship far from home. We, the descendants of Pechvogel, bear no ill feeling towards the crew, not least because Pechvogel survived his 12 seasons in exile, thriving on molluscs, rainwater, seaweed and furious arguments with the seagulls about the true nature of the human condition. Honestly, who needs more than that? And how did he make it back to the Cape? Well, let's just say it was on board the Vliegende Hollander, the vessel which you call the Flying Dutchman, under a captain called Vanderdecken.

    We are grateful for Pechvogel's sojourn on the Bezottens because it means that, today, indisputably, they belong to us, his descendants, no matter what you may read elsewhere. In fact, when Japan and China started the argument a few years ago about who owns the Bezottens, both sides offered us 10 tonnes of silver and a year's supply of cloves and nutmeg to give up the Pechvogel claim. Needless to say, we refused, and, even as I write, plans are being made to raise an expedition to reassert our rights, just as soon as we can work out who the hell do we think we are.

    [email protected]


    So they should be Dutch after all.

  9. #139

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    Sounds like a reasonable compromise. Holland is part of NATO too.


  10. #140

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    You know the situation is fairly bad when it's the top story on BBC News.

    BBC News - China sends patrol ships to disputed East China Sea islands


    China sends patrol ships to disputed East China Sea islands

    China and Japan have been locked in a diplomatic spat over the islands
    Continue reading the main story
    Related Stories

    Japan confirms islands purchase
    Japan 'to buy disputed islands'
    Q&A: China-Japan islands row
    Chinese state media says two patrol ships have been sent to islands disputed with Japan, which has sealed a deal to purchase the islands.

    The ships had reached waters near the islands - known as Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China - to "assert the country's sovereignty", Xinhua said.

    Japan confirmed on Tuesday it had signed a contract to buy three of the islands from their private owner.

    Tension has been rumbling between the two countries over the East China Sea.

    Japan controls the uninhabited but resource-rich islands, which are also claimed by Taiwan. Some had been in the hands of a private Japanese owner but the government says it has now signed a purchase contract.

    "This should cause no problem for Japan's ties with other countries and regions," said Chief Cabinet Secretary Osamu Fujimura.

    Continue reading the main story
    Japan-China disputed islands

    The archipelago consists of five islands and three reefs
    Japan, China and Taiwan claim them; they are controlled by Japan and form part of Okinawa prefecture
    The Japanese government signed a deal in September 2012 to purchase three islands from Japanese businessman Kunioki Kurihara, who used to rent them out to the Japanese state
    The islands were the focus of a major diplomatic row between Japan and China in 2010
    Q&A: China-Japan islands row
    "We have absolutely no desire for any repercussions as far as Japan-China relations are concerned. It is important that we avoid misunderstanding and unforeseen problems."

    Mr Fujimura told reporters that the government had set aside 2.05bn yen ($26m, £16.4m) to pay for the three islands.

    'Serious consequences'
    Japan said on Monday that it was buying the islands to promote their stable and peaceful management - a move that followed a bid by the outspoken and right-wing Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara to buy them using public donations.

    China has called Japan's move illegal and warned it would affect ties.

    State-run media has carried strongly worded statements on the issue.

    "The Chinese government will not sit idly by watching its territorial sovereignty being infringed upon," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement issued on Monday and carried by Xinhua.

    "Should the Japanese side insist on going its own way, it shall have to bear all serious consequences arising therefrom."

    Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao also reiterated China's stand on Monday.

    "The Diaoyu islands are an inalienable part of China's territory, and the Chinese government and its people will absolutely make no concession on issues concerning its sovereignty and territorial integrity," he said.

    The announcement of the dispatch of the patrol boats came in a brief Xinhua report.

    China Marine Surveillance - a maritime law enforcement agency - had "drafted an action plan for safeguarding the sovereignty and would take actions pending the development of the situation", it said.

    A small group of protesters were said to have gathered at the Japanese embassy in Beijing to protest against the purchase.

    The islands, which lie south of Okinawa and north of Taiwan, sit in key shipping lanes and are thought to lie close to gas deposits.

    dear giant likes this.

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