China vs Japan on islands now

Dodraugen · 19-08-2012, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Watercooler:

There is something missing from this discussion so far:

1. Is the Chinese venom against Japan really targeting Japan as opposed to their domestic audience? One sure way to boost the Chinese government's credibility is to make itself look strong in front of it's own people, even if there is little in substance the government can do over the islands. The leadership will in China will change in a few months after all.

2. The domestic protest aren't manufactured solely by the Chinese regime. There is real and genuine anger at Japan among large section of the Chinese population. The Chinese authorities simply looked the other way when these protests were organized, while other kind of protests will be clamped down. The protest organizers take advantage of this leeway to march onto the streets.

3. Things will quiet down after a while. There were also big anti-Japanese protests in 2005 as well. Then things got back to normal (relatively speaking) for Sino-Japanese relations. In other words, hot economic relations but cold diplomatic ties.

3.

The whole "Chinese Nationalism"-discussion warrants a topic of its own, but yes, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with the fact that of CCP using the Japan hatred for own political gains on a lot of occasions. And that the leadership really don't want to look weak during this transition period. In many ways the nationalism is a double edged sword. While it has offered a way (along with economic growth) for the party to hold on to its perceived "legitimacy", as the ideological sway of communism faded, it has also posed a severe challenge on several occasions. I think there's a real fear of these sentiments getting out of hand, too. In fact, using the nationalism card is one way people successfully criticize the regime without getting into much trouble (of course there's a limit, but still). Playing with fire, and all that. But those who suggest that the protests is simply Beijing-orchestrated clearly knows little about Chinese nationalism.

(For those interested, this article by Yinan He, and Suisheng Zhao's "We are Patriots First and Democrats Second" are recommended reads on the topic.)

East_coast · 19-08-2012, 10:36 PM

Originally Posted by Watercooler:

There is something missing from this discussion so far:

1. Is the Chinese venom against Japan really targeting Japan as opposed to their domestic audience? One sure way to boost the Chinese government's credibility is to make itself look strong in front of it's own people, even if there is little in substance the government can do over the islands. The leadership will change in a few months after all.

2. The domestic protest aren't manufactured solely by the Chinese regime. There is real and genuine anger at Japan among large section of the Chinese population. The Chinese authorities simply looked the other way when these protests were organized, while other kind of protests will be clamped down. The protest organizers take advantage of this leeway to march onto the streets.

3. Things will quiet down after a while. There were also big anti-Japanese protests in 2005 as well. Then things got back to normal (relatively speaking) for Sino-Japanese relations. In other words, hot economic relations but cold diplomatic ties.

Isn't the national level of vitriol directed towards Japan orchestrated by the mainland Government. If you ask someone from the Mainland if Japan has ever apologised or given financial recompense for the atrocities of WWII and they will answer with a negative. but...

List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since 1979 Japan has given China 3.5 Trillion Yen in soft loans and grants, no money was given before this point as China had turned down previously

MOFA: Overview of Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China

"The purpose of Japan's policy toward China was to support the
modernization of its physical infrastructure, to encourage the reform
and liberalization of its policies, and to establish political and
economic relations between China and Japan. More generally, it was also
meant to give special attention, within in its overall ODA initiative,
to a country that turned down its rights to war reparations. Among
Japan's bilateral ODA projects, the projects in China had been the most
important."

Dodraugen · 19-08-2012, 10:44 PM

Japan's reasons for doing so is anything but altruistic, though. China has benefited tremendously from it, no doubt, but it's not like monetary support to the government of a country you've thoroughly raped is going to make its inhabitants all jolly, all of the sudden. And its not as if China's hatred of Japan is not reciprocated, although it's usually less dramatic the other way around.

Mat · 19-08-2012, 10:49 PM

Most Chinese and most Japanese do not give a shit about those islands. It's a pathetic reaction from both countries and a few extremists in each of those countries.

Watercooler · 20-08-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Dodraugen:

The whole "Chinese Nationalism"-discussion warrants a topic of its own, but yes, I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees with the fact that of CCP using the Japan hatred for own political gains on a lot of occasions. And that the leadership really don't want to look weak during this transition period. In many ways the nationalism is a double edged sword. While it has offered a way (along with economic growth) for the party to hold on to its perceived "legitimacy", as the ideological sway of communism faded, it has also posed a severe challenge on several occasions. I think there's a real fear of these sentiments getting out of hand, too. In fact, using the nationalism card is one way people successfully criticize the regime without getting into much trouble (of course there's a limit, but still). Playing with fire, and all that. But those who suggest that the protests is simply Beijing-orchestrated clearly knows little about Chinese nationalism.

(For those interested, this article by Yinan He, and Suisheng Zhao's "We are Patriots First and Democrats Second" are recommended reads on the topic.)

Well you can't understand the Chinese reaction to the Diaoyutai islands without understanding Chinese nationalism. The two go hand-in-hand. But otherwise I agree with what you are saying. Zhao is a leading authority on Chinese nationalism, his "double-edged sword" and Chinese education indoctrination of anti-Japanese sentiment thesis is well-known among Chinese scholar and journalists. Although what is less said is how this Chinese nationalism will evolve. One could argue that Chinese nationalism itself is incomplete.

Watercooler · 20-08-2012, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by East_coast:

Isn't the national level of vitriol directed towards Japan orchestrated by the mainland Government. If you ask someone from the Mainland if Japan has ever apologised or given financial recompense for the atrocities of WWII and they will answer with a negative. but...

List of war apology statements issued by Japan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Since 1979 Japan has given China 3.5 Trillion Yen in soft loans and grants, no money was given before this point as China had turned down previously

MOFA: Overview of Official Development Assistance (ODA) to China

"The purpose of Japan's policy toward China was to support the
modernization of its physical infrastructure, to encourage the reform
and liberalization of its policies, and to establish political and
economic relations between China and Japan. More generally, it was also
meant to give special attention, within in its overall ODA initiative,
to a country that turned down its rights to war reparations. Among
Japan's bilateral ODA projects, the projects in China had been the most
important."

You are correct to point out that Japan has given substantial ODA to China, something which the mainland government has chose to downplay or ignore, which serves their political purpose. On the wartime apologies from Japan, it is not the number of apologies but who said it, the words used and the conduct displayed by the Japanese government that matters. The Chinese government believes such apologies are insincere given the conduct of the Japanese government. Repeated visit to the Yaskuni shrine by members of the Japanese parliament and the former prime minister is seen as a grave provocation by the Chinese (and Korean) governments. Since that is where Class A war criminals were enshrined. Paying tributes to those criminals reflect an unwillingness to accept criminal conduct of the war by the Japanese.

Of course I read somewhere that the Japanese government once made an offer to the Chinese government to offer a comprehensive wartime apology that would clean their slate, so to speak. The Chinese government didn't offer a response. Maybe it is in the Chinese government interest not to accept such an apology, so to keep the issue alive.

Watercooler · 20-08-2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by drumbrake:

wrong thread!

Why wrong thread? You can't understand the island dispute without understanding the political and nationalistic reasons for it.

(Oops, I see SS's reply, ignore the above

)

Mat · 20-08-2012, 10:34 AM

Both countries are pretty nationalistic when it comes to those things - Nationalistic and pathetic, as if the world didn't have enough problem to deal with.