Like Tree51Likes

China's 6 Wars in the next 50 Years

Reply
Page 8 of 16 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast
  1. #71

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    猴山
    Posts
    22,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumbler:
    easy, double standard. in fact, Japan, Korea, US, Russia, and others all have ADIZ or something similar for years. nobody is claiming the zone is their territory.
    Were these other zones set-up unilaterally with minimal notice and overlapping other countries equivalent zones?

    If the zones had been set-up in a diplomatically sensible way then perhaps there would not be such a reaction and they may have been taken seriously rather than ignored.

    Perhaps if the Communist Party of China would accept Japan's offer of a military hotline and have some sort of official representation in Taiwan to avoid potential escalation. The actions of the CCP do not seem to take into account the responsibilities that should go along with being a burgeoning super-power.
    Last edited by East_coast; 29-11-2013 at 07:15 PM.
    Watercooler likes this.

  2. #72

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,487
    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Were these other zones set-up unilaterally with minimal notice and overlapping other countries equivalent zones?

    If the zones had been set-up in a diplomatically sensible way then perhaps there would not be such a reaction and they may have been taken seriously rather than ignored.

    Perhaps if the Communist Party of China would accept Japan's offer of a military hotline and have some sort of official representation in Taiwan to avoid potential escalation. The actions of the CCP do not seem to take into account the responsibilities that should go along with being a burgeoning super-power.
    so you think China was okay with Japan setting up their zone when they asked (if they asked at all)? don't tell me they asked US or Korea, doesn't count does it... Japan/Korea are US allies, their zone are basically US zone anyways. don't think China/Russia would agree to their zone anyway even if they asked. and what is a sensible zone when US sets up the zone all the way here at China's doorstep. as far as China is concerned, it has rights to do whatever they want to safe guard their safety/interest the same way we do it. just man up and say, we don't like it that you are copying what we do. stop manipulating the public into thinking we are not already doing the same thing. cold war mentality all over. in this case, making an enemy when it's unnecessary.

  3. #73

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    猴山
    Posts
    22,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumbler:
    so you think China was okay with Japan setting up their zone when they asked (if they asked at all)? don't tell me they asked US or Korea, doesn't count does it... Japan/Korea are US allies, their zone are basically US zone anyways. don't think China/Russia would agree to their zone anyway even if they asked. and what is a sensible zone when US sets up the zone all the way here at China's doorstep. as far as China is concerned, it has rights to do whatever they want to safe guard their safety/interest the same way we do it. just man up and say, we don't like it that you are copying what we do. stop manipulating the public into thinking we are not already doing the same thing. cold war mentality all over. in this case, making an enemy when it's unnecessary.
    So you are suggesting that a country that unilateral establishing a ADIZ that overlaps other countries zones is the same as those that don't. Interesting
    closedcasket likes this.

  4. #74
    ouwen
    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    So you are suggesting that a country that unilateral establishing a ADIZ that overlaps other countries zones is the same as those that don't. Interesting

    If two countries border each other, then their ADIZ's will overlap. An ADIZ inside your own country doesn't make sense. Unless you want to take down bombers and cruise missiles after they have already nuked your cities.

  5. #75

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Pampanga, Philippines
    Posts
    27,124
    Quote Originally Posted by ouwen:
    If two countries border each other, then their ADIZ's will overlap. An ADIZ inside your own country doesn't make sense. Unless you want to take down bombers and cruise missiles after they have already nuked your cities.
    Are there other examples of overlaps. I must admit I know nothing about ADIZs

  6. #76

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,487
    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    Are there other examples of overlaps. I must admit I know nothing about ADIZs
    hm... just a wild guess. pretty much all of USSR and USA zones were overlapping. they were going for world domination. come on.

  7. #77

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,112
    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Were these other zones set-up unilaterally with minimal notice and overlapping other countries equivalent zones?

    If the zones had been set-up in a diplomatically sensible way then perhaps there would not be such a reaction and they may have been taken seriously rather than ignored.

    Perhaps if the Communist Party of China would accept Japan's offer of a military hotline and have some sort of official representation in Taiwan to avoid potential escalation. The actions of the CCP do not seem to take into account the responsibilities that should go along with being a burgeoning super-power.
    It's not about the the ADIZ overlapping with other countries nor about China's supposed responsibilities as the next up-and-coming superpower. It's about forcing Japan to accept there is a dispute and negotiate. Japan has all along refused to recognize there is a territorial dispute with China so China is now "turning up the heat" against Japan. The overlap is an instrument of pressure, a tactic and not the ultimate end.

    Is this a reckless move? Even potentially dangerous? Perhaps. But it does turn heads now doesn't it? Why do you think the Chinese did'nt intercept the B52s? Having B-52a flying in China's ADIZ actually serves Chinese purpose in that sense. It demonstrates how dangerous this could be. It places greater pressure on Japan to come to terms with China. So far the Japanese aren't budging, but maybe with a little pressure from the US, they might be a little more willing. The US has a an obligation to defend Japan if it comes under attack, but it does not want to be dragged into a conflict between China and Japan.
    Last edited by Watercooler; 30-11-2013 at 12:21 PM.

  8. #78

    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    猴山
    Posts
    22,173
    Quote Originally Posted by Watercooler:
    Japan has all along refused to recognize there is a territorial dispute with China so China is now "turning up the heat" against Japan. The overlap is an instrument of pressure, a tactic and not the ultimate end.
    Don't Japan consider the islands sovereign territory so it is difficult for them to consider there is actually a dispute for them.

    Having another country create a special ADIZ that ALL aircraft must report entering rather than only those that plan to enter their airspace proper over your own territory isn't very similar to a bi-laterally agreed overlapping ADIZ zones where aircraft the are just passing through don't need to notify. It does seem a very aggressive move that will probably end badly. What airspace will be next to annexed by CCP - The South China Sea perhaps?
    Last edited by East_coast; 30-11-2013 at 06:03 PM.

  9. #79
    ouwen
    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Don't Japan consider the islands sovereign territory so it is difficult for them to consider there is actually a dispute for them.

    Having another country create a special ADIZ that ALL aircraft must report entering rather than only those that plan to enter their airspace proper over your own territory isn't very similar to a bi-laterally agreed overlapping ADIZ zones where aircraft the are just passing through don't need to notify. It does seem a very aggressive move that will probably end badly. What airspace will be next to annexed by CCP - The South China Sea perhaps?

    An ADIZ doesn't hold much water. It's only military support for international air traffic control. If you enter a country without a passport/visa you might get arrested by people with guns. Fly in without air traffic control clearance and the people with guns might think you are sneaking in with a nuke.

    The only thing that really counts is that you govern that useless little rock in the ocean, and that people recognize your governance. That gives you ownership of all the ocean natural resources for 200 miles around that rock. The Pacific nations should have begun talks decades ago. But they were developing nations, and ocean resources were not important then. By doing nothing, they left the back door open for US involvement. Now fear mongering PR for money and power have overcome common sense.

    Fear sell weapons and empowers the politicians and military elite. The people give up more of their prosperity for safety from the fear, real or not. This can make your nation the number one economy in the world.

    On the other side, China will gain undying support for it's weapons industry development. More weapons dealers, more wars, more dead women and children.

    The people lose, and the bad guys win, on both sides.
    Last edited by ouwen; 03-12-2013 at 11:40 AM.

  10. #80

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,112
    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Don't Japan consider the islands sovereign territory so it is difficult for them to consider there is actually a dispute for them.

    Having another country create a special ADIZ that ALL aircraft must report entering rather than only those that plan to enter their airspace proper over your own territory isn't very similar to a bi-laterally agreed overlapping ADIZ zones where aircraft the are just passing through don't need to notify. It does seem a very aggressive move that will probably end badly. What airspace will be next to annexed by CCP - The South China Sea perhaps?
    That is Japan's stance. Although China felt Japan violated a tacit understanding to shelve the dispute with them when the Japanese nationalized the islands in September last year. The Chinese felt this was a unilateral change of status quo and could not be tolerated. Not saying I agree with the Chinese's actions, but it is indeed true that the dispute heated up seriously after the island nationalization. This ADIZ may very well be, from the Chinese's standpoint, giving Japan a taste of their own medicine. The danger of incidents would be used to pressure Japan to accept a dispute exist. Whether Japan does so is another question of course. So what we have is brinkmanship...

Reply
Page 8 of 16 FirstFirst ... 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 ... LastLast