Your allowed to Protest here...but you'l still be arrested..

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  1. #51

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    I think most people would agree that China has come a long way in the last 20 years...Why does it have to be on other people's timetable and not theirs? Who else on this planet has to manage more than a billion people and trying to get them out of poverty?

    India has more freedom and look where it's getting them... More freedom also means more chaos. I think the majority of people are prepared to forego some freedom for order and food on their table.

    Perfect example is the severe crackdown in the US since 911. Even with all the excesses of the Bush administration in the first term, he got reelected. All because a a few terrorists and the big fear...


  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    I think most people would agree that China has come a long way in the last 20 years...Why does it have to be on other people's timetable and not theirs? Who else on this planet has to manage more than a billion people and trying to get them out of poverty?

    India has more freedom and look where it's getting them... More freedom also means more chaos. I think the majority of people are prepared to forego some freedom for order and food on their table.

    Perfect example is the severe crackdown in the US since 911. Even with all the excesses of the Bush administration in the first term, he got reelected. All because a a few terrorists and the big fear...
    So, India's freedom is the cause of their problems? That's rich.

  3. #53

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    [QUOTE=gilleshk;239682]I think most people would agree that China has come a long way in the last 20 years...Why does it have to be on other people's timetable and not theirs? Who else on this planet has to manage more than a billion people and trying to get them out of poverty?

    India has more freedom and look where it's getting them... More freedom also means more chaos. I think the majority of people are prepared to forego some freedom for order and food on their table.

    QUOTE]

    you seem to forget that the poverty you talk about was caused, at least in modern times, by a regime which was far more oppressive than the one now...shows a clear correlation between increasing freedoms (albeit limited), and increased wealth...they've still a long, long way to go


  4. #54

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    The irony is that we are actually allowed to have such discussions and arguments in HK. In China, they would not be allowed to have such discussions.


  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by pin:
    The irony is that we are actually allowed to have such discussions and arguments in HK. In China, they would not be allowed to have such discussions.
    which is why I will probably never visit...

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by jahoga:
    So, India's freedom is the cause of their problems? That's rich.
    That would be a very stupid thing to believe just like thinking that freedom and democracy is the solution to all problems...

    No one else on the planet has the kind of population to manage that India and China has...it's pretty arrogant to think that one knows who to make it run better...

    Singapore has done very well for example with a government that is not exactly democratic.

    China has come a long way and it's not by being a an isolationist that you improve the situation. The US tried that with Cuba and look how successful that's been...

    Most nations have understood now that it's by exchanging, trading, traveling that you get to start making a difference. Giving China the Olympics was one such move and while some people might have objections over petty things like protests and fake fireworks, the bottom line is that it's moving things forward.

    You don't go from A to Z in one go, there are a few letters in between...

  7. #57

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    Ah, I was just pushing buttons there... following up on a ridiculous assertion with equal vigor.

    I tend to agree more with Daniel's response.

    Repressive governments simply do not give the people the chance to solve their own problems.

    Look at both India and China: the most difficult times where when the governments were most restrictive. In the last 25 years or so, the governments have opened up and eased up, and look, we have growth.

    Could Singapore not have achieved what it has with full freedoms instead of Mr. Lee? If Mr. Lee and his crew are so smart, they would have just as much opportunity to contribute in a functional democracy that rewards creativity and intelligence.

    And yes, "freedom and democracy are not the solution to all problems" but they are part of a solution involving many other factors.


  8. #58

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    Too much freedom and the you get anarchy... Having a multitude of political parties like an idea makes governing extremely difficult.

    In any case, I think getting stuck on stupid little things like the lack of protest at the Olympics which in my opinion isn't an appropriate forum for unrelated grievances is somewhat petty.

    China has many things that they need to improve on like many other countries but they're putting on an excellent event with the Olympics and in the long run, the positive will outweigh the negative.

    I think DandH showed his true colors when he mentioned he will never visit...


  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    Too much freedom and the you get anarchy... Having a multitude of political parties like an idea makes governing extremely difficult.

    In any case, I think getting stuck on stupid little things like the lack of protest at the Olympics which in my opinion isn't an appropriate forum for unrelated grievances is somewhat petty.

    China has many things that they need to improve on like many other countries but they're putting on an excellent event with the Olympics and in the long run, the positive will outweigh the negative.

    I think DandH showed his true colors when he mentioned he will never visit...
    yes...you seem to attach negative connatations to this - why exactly?I have spoken about my dislike for the way in which china is run, the lack of freedoms - of speech being the one that really annoys me - so surely by stating that I will probably never visit I am at the very least sticking by my convictions rather than being hypocritical.

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    From where I'm standing, they're looking pretty good... Dominating the gold medal tally
    Wow, at this point I can only hope gilleshk is taking the piss

    Because yes, that's what matters - gold medals for professional athletes!

    Sure, there are a few admirable athletes - Roger Bannister for example who led a normal life outside of running, but even he agreed he was much prouder of his contributions to neuroscience than running a 4-minute mile.

    It's hard to really give two shits when some athlete who's done nothing but train professionally since their teenage years wins a medal for their personal glory and goes on to become Nike's mascot. Whoopee.

    Unless they seriously think they're doing it for their country's pride. I suppose in China that actually is the case, but if I was Chinese I think I'd rather democracy and freedom than topping the gold medal table...

    All this temporary national pride and "it's just about the sports - forget our appalling corruption!" is strikingly similar to the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

    With a certain section of the population it seems like the Olympics have become some kind of get-out-clause for committing atrocities. Certainly Russia and Georgia seem to see it that way.

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