Your allowed to Protest here...but you'l still be arrested..

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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    yes...you seem to attach negative connatations to this - why exactly?I have spoken about my dislike for the way in which china is run, the lack of freedoms - of speech being the one that really annoys me - so surely by stating that I will probably never visit I am at the very least sticking by my convictions rather than being hypocritical.

    Why not go there and see by yourself instead of relying on what you read on the newspaper or hear on TV or what you heard from that guy or this guy...

    I've been countless time to China, I'm engaged to a chinese girl and tend to strongly agree with Gilleshk...

    China has moved a long long way and what westerners call "freedom of speech" will come too...just give it some time....

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    and tend to strongly agree with Gilleshk...
    Not much hope then

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Why not go there and see by yourself instead of relying on what you read on the newspaper or hear on TV or what you heard from that guy or this guy...

    I've been countless time to China, I'm engaged to a chinese girl and tend to strongly agree with Gilleshk...

    China has moved a long long way and what westerners call "freedom of speech" will come too...just give it some time....
    because, quite simple, I don't want to. Whilst I am sure there are wonderful sights to see etc, there are many places I'd sooner visit in the limited time I get spend traveling. Additionally, all the things that get me down or cause me stress in HK would be exasperated in the mainland...ie lack of spatial awareness, lack of manners etc...and finally, I do not wish to go to a country that still reveres one of histories monsters in mao...

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    because, quite simple, I don't want to. Whilst I am sure there are wonderful sights to see etc, there are many places I'd sooner visit in the limited time I get spend traveling. Additionally, all the things that get me down or cause me stress in HK would be exasperated in the mainland...ie lack of spatial awareness, lack of manners etc...and finally, I do not wish to go to a country that still reveres one of histories monsters in mao...

    Honestly sad for you, you are missing on so much and you are judging without even knowing (since you have never set a foot there)

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamton:
    Not much hope then
    on this particular aspect not on everything...

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamton:
    Wow, at this point I can only hope gilleshk is taking the piss

    Because yes, that's what matters - gold medals for professional athletes!

    Sure, there are a few admirable athletes - Roger Bannister for example who led a normal life outside of running, but even he agreed he was much prouder of his contributions to neuroscience than running a 4-minute mile.

    It's hard to really give two shits when some athlete who's done nothing but train professionally since their teenage years wins a medal for their personal glory and goes on to become Nike's mascot. Whoopee.

    Unless they seriously think they're doing it for their country's pride. I suppose in China that actually is the case, but if I was Chinese I think I'd rather democracy and freedom than topping the gold medal table...

    All this temporary national pride and "it's just about the sports - forget our appalling corruption!" is strikingly similar to the 1936 Berlin Olympics.

    With a certain section of the population it seems like the Olympics have become some kind of get-out-clause for committing atrocities. Certainly Russia and Georgia seem to see it that way.
    Well i agree that athletes like Bolt aren't exactly what I'd like my kids to grow up like if I had any...On the other hand, that's what the Olympics are about, demonstrating athletic prowess and China is doing just that...

    As to what the average chinese wants, I wouldn't wager on freedom and democracy over national pride. I'd probably say collecting a decent paycheck would top the list...

    Anyway, I'd rather cheer the athletes than some Greenpeace beatnik, Falun Gong nut or corrupt politician(are there any other kind?)

    Is Nelson Mandela a better man than George Bush, Tom Cruise or Lance Armstrong? Not for me to say frankly. I'm not arrogant enough to put value on people unlike someone whose name ends with N.

  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielandHayley:
    finally, I do not wish to go to a country that still reveres one of histories monsters in mao...
    Oh Lord give me strength, that must be a high horse you are riding...

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    Well i agree that athletes like Bolt aren't exactly what I'd like my kids to grow up like if I had any...On the other hand, that's what the Olympics are about, demonstrating athletic prowess and China is doing just that...
    Err... well I've always been told the Olympics were about participation, the sporting spirit and peace.

    You know - "it's not the winning, it's the taking part".

    Except a few people like yourself managed to completely ignore that message...


    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    Is Nelson Mandela a better man than George Bush, Tom Cruise or Lance Armstrong? Not for me to say frankly. I'm not arrogant enough to put value on people unlike someone whose name ends with N.
    How high and mighty of you. Get over yourself and maybe less people will think you're a dick.

    Well, Mandela... if you ignore his early slightly Mugabe-like years, then frankly he is a better man than the monkey, the crazy actor and the cyclist. Why? Because he's actually improved people's lives. He's helped people. He won rights for blacks in South Africa and tried to fight against AIDS. His existence was more than just a selfish grab for money and fame.

    So yes, I'd say he's a better man than the idiotic mass murder and some famous actor/athlete. But I don't know Mandela's complete history, and how many people may or may not have died at his hands when he lead the ANC. So he's no saint either.

    There's nothing wrong with putting value on someone's contributions to society. That's not arrogance. If someone has helped others, it's clearly worth noting. If you considered money or fame as 'winning the race' or something, that might be arrogance. If good actions had no value and people were too up themselves to acknowledge good and evil, we'd be clearly fucked and living in anarchy.
    Last edited by MrLister; 20-08-2008 at 11:45 PM.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamton:
    Err... well I've always been told the Olympics were about participation, the sporting spirit and peace.
    To begin, the Olympic motto is "Citius, Altius, Fortius. It is not only about participation or else everyone would be allowed which clearly isn't the case, you have to qualify and be amongst the best in the world to be there.

    Secondly, most people agree that China is putting on a fabulous event...and yes there are criticism about human rights but that's nothing new and i don't know why people expect it to be any different at the Olympics.

  10. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    Secondly, most people agree that China is putting on a fabulous event...and yes there are criticism about human rights but that's nothing new and i don't know why people expect it to be any different at the Olympics.
    I think the Olympics is just going to be a lightning rod for whatever the faults (real or imagined, take your pick) of the host country are. Imagine if these Olympics were in the USA now??
    Read a good editorial in the Vancouver paper the other day about all the things that are about to be exposed when the games come calling.
    If I am a country, I don't want the Olympics. Not worth the hassle.

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