4 June censorship in China

[pin]

well kids its 4 June today.

the media clampdown is well underway in China.

also reported that certain protectors are being denied entry into Macau and HK, so much for "one country two systems" going on. its more about "one china one love".

[Mat]

Same could be said for any society. Your argument appears to be that because some people do not have democracy as their main priority, then democracy should be denied for all.

No, you clearly do not know how to read - Sorry to say that.

What I said is that we need to debate this subject BUT not forget that for a sizeable population of the coutnry it is not the main priority (hence they do not really fight for it). I truly believe that when a nation reach a certain level of development then its population start to have more time / freedom to entertain the idea of politic.

You should also remember that the democractic system that we use in the west is not necessarly what chinese want to use.

Look around you (sadly you will maybe say) but many HKers do not really care about whether they can elect their leader under a full universal suffrage or not. Lack of education, Lack of interest? Maybe.

Now I totally agree that the June 4th events were truly tragic and that the chinese gvt should acknowledge it.

But that does not necessarly mean that a full western democracy is the right solution for China. it might be, or it might not.

[pin]

SCMP has been quite forthright in its Leader today about the 4 June events.

This was a paper that I thought was slight pro-Beijing, or at the very least self censoring itself. However today, its been quite strong in its language.

[UK/HKboy]

No, you clearly do not know how to read - Sorry to say that.

What I said is that we need to debate this subject BUT not forget that for a sizeable population of the coutnry it is not the main priority (hence they do not really fight for it). I truly believe that when a nation reach a certain level of development then its population start to have more time / freedom to entertain the idea of politic.

You should also remember that the democractic system that we use in the west is not necessarly what chinese want to use.

Look around you (sadly you will maybe say) but many HKers do not really care about whether they can elect their leader under a full universal suffrage or not. Lack of education, Lack of interest? Maybe.

Now I totally agree that the June 4th events were truly tragic and that the chinese gvt should acknowledge it.

But that does not necessarly mean that a full western democracy is the right solution for China. it might be, or it might not.

i think the general gist of almost any country and their people is that we dont care if we have a monkey in charge of the country...

just be fair (as much as possible)
offer us protection
let us be free (as much as possible)

and i also do not think democracay is the answer... in fact i dont even think democracy works that well in most western countries.

[Sleuth]

iand i also do not think democracay is the answer... in fact i dont even think democracy works that well in most western countries.

Quite right--the worst form of government ever created, except for all the other forms. (With apologies to Churchill who said it better.)

But I agree with Mat. And I think his reasoning can be applied to all sorts of things--like clean air/water/food/milk.
You have to have a reasonable amount of free time and be able to look to the future to care about politics. If you are poor and living in rural China, what happened 20 years ago really isn't a pressing concern.

[Skyhook]

Same could be said for any society. Your argument appears to be that because some people do not have democracy as their main priority, then democracy should be denied for all.

It has always been denied in Hong Kong, and was no different when the British ruled. The Governors were hand picked on behalf of the HK people, by the British government. Now the CEO of HK is picked from an agreeable selection of candidates that Beijing feels is the right person to run the city... Business is business, in my opinion.

HK has to be one of the happiest non democratic cities in the world then lol. Personally i much prefer how they govern here, than the Orwellian invasion of privacy back home, or any New World Order pontificating country. USA, UK et al.

[drumbrake]

I truly believe that when a nation reach a certain level of development then its population start to have more time / freedom to entertain the idea of politic.

You should also remember that the democractic system that we use in the west is not necessarly what chinese want to use.

So what level of development do you think is needed before the population can think about political development?

Secondly, why can't the Chinese themselves decide what system of government they want, rather than the CCP?

[drumbrake]

It has always been denied in Hong Kong, and was no different when the British ruled. The Governors were hand picked on behalf of the HK people, by the British government. Now the CEO of HK is picked from an agreeable selection of candidates that Beijing feels is the right person to run the city... Business is business, in my opinion.

It was wrong in the past and it is still wrong now.

[drumbrake]

and i also do not think democracay is the answer... in fact i dont even think democracy works that well in most western countries.

Please tell me what system you think would be an improvement.

[Mat]

So what level of development do you think is needed before the population can think about political development?

Secondly, why can't the Chinese themselves decide what system of government they want, rather than the CCP?

1. To put it simple and since we do not have much space to rumble for 20 pages, I would say when a significant number of people have the time and interest to raise and debate those issues and ask for a different political system.

In my very humble view, democracy (which ever form of democracy) is not something that you give (ie from the top) is something that the bottom push for and slowly (sometime faster thru some revolution of some sort) things change.

2. They could and they will in the future but you have to realise that these things can't happen in a forthnight. We are talking about 1.3 Billion people with at least half of that poor, uneducated and without access to any sort of communication (sorry it can sound harsh here).

A few things will have to change at the bottom first (education), then probably some "democracy test" at the Provincial level.....and the list goes on.

You also have to keep in mind that many of the Chinese Leaders have been educated in China and lived in China 99% of their life. As such the concept of democarcy can be quite alien to them.

Those things are however changing and you see a new breed of politicians, some with Oxford, Cambridge, HK...degrees and outside world exposure. When these leaders will take power (or at least slowly establish themself more firmly in the CCP) things will change slowly.

Finally what makes us so certain that chineses wish for our form of democracy?