4 June censorship in China

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  1. #41

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    I agree with Mat,

    I think China is running things a lot better than say, India, both countries share a similar population mass, but are chalk and cheese different. India being a democracy, i wouldn't say has really made it a better place, China is far more focused on its long term goals, and its people patriotically follow that leadership.

    China has softened a lot over the last 20 years and has managed to become a capitalist version of its pre 1990 self. Things have improved, and its not like any of our nations have not massacred their share of innocent people in the past.. Remember Gandhi PIN and Drumbrake ? Remember the massacres the British orchestrated in India early last century ? 1000's of unarmed people mowed down by British infantrymen, or the 1000's of African slaves that the Southern Americans lynched from tree's around the same era ? Or a thousand other such atrocities that all of our ancestors committed over the course of human history.

    I for one am sick to death of hearing about Tienanmen square, especially while China has made leaps and bounds in its development, especially when our ancestors have killed unarmed crowds too!

    Now, if China had remained the same iron fist wielding nation of pre 1989, unchanged etc, sure then no argument, bitch away, but if your country has massacred unarmed people at any stage of documented history, where do you get off now ?


    Why is Tienanmen Square such a sensitive topic to some foreigners, when their own people have committed far worse atrocities in the historic past, which screams irony to me. Best just to leave sleeping dogs lie in my opinion, and enjoy the current progress made..

    China is on course to greatly improving the lifestyles of its people, and if it can do it under a modified guise of communism, then so be it.

    I am not an advocate of the existing western democracy as per the American design, as i feel it leaves it self wide open to be abused by the rich, to make their life easier, at the expense of the poor/working classes.

    Last edited by Skyhook; 04-06-2009 at 02:01 PM.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:

    2. We are talking about 1.3 Billion people with at least half of that poor, uneducated and without access to any sort of communication (sorry it can sound harsh here).

    A few things will have to change at the bottom first (education), then probably some "democracy test" at the Provincial level.....and the list goes on.

    Finally what makes us so certain that chineses wish for our form of democracy?
    What level of education do you think is needed before you can vote? Primary? Secondary? University?

    What level of income do you think is needed before you can vote? US$1 a day? US$50? US$1000?

    There have been direct 'village elections' in China since the 1980s. So there has been change at the bottom, but not further up.

    As I said before, I think the Chinese should be allowed to choose their form of government, not the CCP.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:

    China has softened a lot over the last 20 years and has managed to become a capitalist version of its pre 1990 self. Things have improved, and its not like any of our nations have not massacred their share of innocent people in the past.. Remember Gandhi PIN and Drumbrake ? Remember the massacres the British orchestrated in India early last century ? 1000's of unarmed people mowed down by British infantrymen, or the 1000's of African slaves that the Southern Americans lynched from tree's around the same era ? Or a thousand other such atrocities that all of our ancestors committed over the course of human history.
    So because country A committed atrocities, it is ok for country B to also commit atrocities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    I am not an advocate of the existing western democracy as per the American design, as i feel it leaves it self wide open to be abused by the rich, to make their life easier, at the expense of the poor/working classes.
    Aren't the poor and weak abused by the rich and powerful in China as well?

  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    What level of education do you think is needed before you can vote? Primary? Secondary? University?

    What level of income do you think is needed before you can vote? US$1 a day? US$50? US$1000?

    There have been direct 'village elections' in China since the 1980s. So there has been change at the bottom, but not further up.

    As I said before, I think the Chinese should be allowed to choose their form of government, not the CCP.
    Mat can speak for himself but I am pretty sure he is not saying you must have a certain level of education or income before being allowed to vote as you imply but rather that increased education and wealth tends to lead to a desire for more of a say in how things are run.

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Best just to leave sleeping dogs lie in my opinion...
    But it's hard when we still remember.

  6. #46

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    Knowing human behavioral traits as we do, then what is the answer Drumbrake ?

    Continue the western Orwellian/Utopian directive and be constantly monitored so we don't hurt ourselves long enough to earn income to pay our govt tax ?

    Or is there a better way, that you would like to nominate...

    And sorry Clare I beg to differ that it is no better or worse than what the British did in India around 1919, killing 100's of unarmed men, women and children and injuring 1000's of people during one 10 minute massacre, 1650 shots fired, 33 shots per infantryman, during the Amritsar Massacre. If anything it was more brutal and even more cold blooded, because we ( The WEST ) should have behaved with more civility, but chose not to.

    Last edited by Skyhook; 04-06-2009 at 02:30 PM.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    So because country A committed atrocities, it is ok for country B to also commit atrocities?
    No, but it is hypocritical of the Government of country A to lecture country B.

    I think it was this time last year I brought up the topic of Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. Innocent, unarmed protesters demanding human rights and a fair democracy shot down by the military. Except this was the UK.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    What level of education do you think is needed before you can vote? Primary? Secondary? University?

    What level of income do you think is needed before you can vote? US$1 a day? US$50? US$1000?

    There have been direct 'village elections' in China since the 1980s. So there has been change at the bottom, but not further up.

    As I said before, I think the Chinese should be allowed to choose their form of government, not the CCP.
    IF it was that easy.....

    It is not a matter of individual reaching Primary / secondary / university level (voting is not based on your school level as far as I know) it is a matter of whether eduaction is somehow readily available, reliable and your population has sufficient information to be able to make a decision (so far close to 70% of the population in China is rural, many without any communciation access to the outside world).

    It is not a matter of level of income - it is a matter of at what point your basic needs are secured and you are able to think, entertain the idea of politics....

    Believe me there has been tremendous changes already and it will continue. My in laws have fled china in the early 80, they could tell you easily the difference between now and then.

    Tienanmen was a disaster, the CCP should speak openly about and it is sad for the victims but do not judge the openess of China only on Tiananmen or the Tibet issue for example. it is a far more complex country.
    Last edited by Mat; 04-06-2009 at 02:23 PM.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:

    As I said before, I think the Chinese should be allowed to choose their form of government, not the CCP.
    You are completely missing the point.

    They HAVE chosen their form of Government. How? By not rebelling against the one they have. Everyone has a choice, a ballot box may be simpler, but don't assume that just because people do not have one that they are entirely powerless, because there are a heck of a lot of French and Russians out there (as a small example) who might prove you wrong.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    Please tell me what system you think would be an improvement.
    i think i should be made the leader of the world...

    i am a fair type of bloke, i am empathetic, and i do not let power corrupt me (probably)...

    in fact i should apply for that chinese government job...

    in all seriousness though,

    I do not have the perfect political system plan but there are some who are promoting democracy when it has its own problems and it is debateable whether it is the "better" policitcal system for China.

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