4 June censorship in China

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  1. #51

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    Who can forget the meaning of Bastille day ? The French revolution and soon after the signing of the worlds first declaration of human rights. Viva la Revolution !

    Moving is entirely right, if people in mass want to overthrow their govt, I don't think 1 billion people would have much trouble lol

    Last edited by Skyhook; 04-06-2009 at 02:38 PM.

  2. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    So because country A committed atrocities, it is ok for country B to also commit atrocities?
    it means both countries are as bad as each other...

    "people in glasshouses should not throw stones"

    i think many other countries are being very hypocritical when criticising China. i also think China are being hypocritical about japan and their war crimes...

    as skyhook touched on... i don't see the big fascination with June 4th at Tiananmen Square. if talking about atrocities of the Communist Party... more people died from poor planning and policies during the Cultural Revolution.

  3. #53

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    It is interesting to read the timeline on CNN
    Timeline: China's student democracy movement - CNN.com

    Extract:

    July 29 1989. The People's Daily publishes a Politburo decision to 1) purge state-controlled companies; 2) prohibit children of high cadres from engaging in business; 3) stop the "special supply" of food to top party leaders; 4) strictly regulate the use of official automobiles and forbid luxury sedan imports; 5) prohibit the use of public funds for dinner parties or gifts; 6) strictly control foreign travel and 7) investigate cases of corruption, bribery and other crimes.
    Things have changed in 20 years.

    I am not for or against a democracy in China, but when you read about the people who get rich because the have sold or developed the farm land (which was always owned by the everyone in the village), something is wrong. And it is the poor people that suffer - they do want some change, but when they voice their concern or try to petition someone, they are stonewalled. It is the ordinary person that is becoming increasingly disillusioned in China as the gap between the "haves" and "have nots" broadens.

    I think we all agree that China will continue to change and I personally think that a people-lead movement for quicker change will happen sooner or later (maybe much later?). I think we have seen glimpses of what people-power can achieve in China with such "incidents" as the Doing Push-ups guy, the Smiling Angel in the Wheelchair, the Shenzhen Official Assault on a 11yo Girl, etc.

    Public sentiment in China can ebb and flow and I believe that something quite minor could be the starting point for major change. When the wheelchair athlete defended the torch she was labeled a heroine and a true Chinese patriot. She was front page news and the internet was abuzz with chat and the government used this as propaganda to gain support for the Olympics and the torch relay.
    Then she said that the French should not be punished, etc, and she was then vilified online, but the government had created a problem with what to censor and what to allow with regards to the media coverage of this. I think this was a good example of how the pendulum can swing back and the momentum is difficult for the government to stop.
    China News: Hero to Traitor: The Difference a Day Makes | China Digital Times (CDT)

    Interesting times indeed.

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by UK/HKboy:
    as skyhook touched on... i don't see the big fascination with June 4th at Tiananmen Square. if talking about atrocities of the Communist Party... more people died from poor planning and policies during the Cultural Revolution.
    Because it a symbolic moment hugely debated in the western media. The fact that the chinese gvt openly denies it makes it even more symbolic. That's why you have such fascination (before everybody jump on me, I am not judging here...)

  5. #55

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    I can understand the Chinese government wanting this issue to be forgotten but I can also understand the feelings of resentment that families and victims might feel. I also agree that other nations should fix their own houses before telling others like China what to do with theirs.

    In Canada, you can see far more enduring harm done to first nations people there by prior governments, churches and agencies when you visit many poor Indian or Eskimo or other native communities than occurred at Tiananmen in 1989. However that is no consolation for those who feel aggrieved by China as one of their family suffered or died there.

    It may be in the character of the Chinese people combined with the mantra of the Communist Party that makes it tough for them to make amends for this event in some way so that it can be put behind them. However, some will always use this event for their own political purposes as they do with events in other countries.

    It might also be the fear that the China government has of social disharmony and unrest across a nation that is both exceedingly rich and equally as poor with those with nothing have little to lose if things got rough and out of hand. That is one thing that most western countries don't have is the large numbers of 'have nots'. Look at the riots in Paris with the have nots. Lucky for the French the numbers aren't in the millions.

    Patrick Henry, the "give me liberty or give me death" guy said it well when he said "I know of no way of judging the future but by the past." Santayana might have said it even better: " Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Confucius himself said that people should "Study the past if you would divine the future."

    The past is always prologue to the future whether it is in the lives of people or nations as diverse and rich in history as is China. This was not a watershed event for China but a sad event that might never be erased in dissidents' minds in a life time.

    I would not go as far as Skyhook who suggests to let sleeping dogs lie or that the western democracies aren't good. It can only be a product of one of those nations that has the luxury to make a claim like that. While we may all complain of how our governments work but few of us from places like Canada would go so far as to suggest that a democratic government is not preferable to other forms of government.

    Last edited by Football16; 04-06-2009 at 03:13 PM.

  6. #56

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    Croc's post was done while mine was half baked due to business calls or I'd have simply echoed his views!

    The CNN timeline is one I wished I had read before posting as it seems that the demonstrators had cut off lawful activities in a part of Beijing and the timeline shows the gov't had some fear of uprisings across China. Gov'ts have a responsibility to maintain the law of course and we hope that they don't go too far.

    I loved Hilary Clinton's statement too until I sat back and said WTF... why don't they apply that type of thinking to Guantanamo or even the illegal war in Iraq! If I am thinking like that, you bet the Chinese leaders are thinking that too. They see the west's hectoring and lecturing as BS as they too have much to be ashamed about and they'd be telling other nations to go ... themselves if they got criticized.

    During the torch fervor I was blown away by the response of Chinese I know who were so freaking angry at the torch attacks and for a moment that scared me to think that Chinese people could be that angry and all in unison. I am sure the gov't saw that too and that is why they took steps later to stop their angry cheer leading as they too could see how fragile their social fabric would be if they had unrest there and how easy it would be for someone to get the populace into a fervor that could be directed against them! It's the old adage in the Bob Dylan song, "if you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose." That is why you don't see rich nations fighting each other in wars these days. Those who could be dangerous to social unrest would be those not in the economic mainstream and as China is still developing, it has many, many not yet full economic participants and thus I can see why they fear these risks.

    Last edited by Football16; 04-06-2009 at 03:33 PM.

  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by UK/HKboy:
    I do not have the perfect political system plan but there are some who are promoting democracy when it has its own problems and it is debateable whether it is the "better" policitcal system for China.
    Debatable here, but not across the border.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    No, but it is hypocritical of the Government of country A to lecture country B.

    I think it was this time last year I brought up the topic of Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. Innocent, unarmed protesters demanding human rights and a fair democracy shot down by the military. Except this was the UK.
    So are you saying that unless a country has a totally blameless past, it cannot criticise another country? Howabout an individual, can I criticise the government of another country?

  9. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    IF it was that easy.....

    It is not a matter of individual reaching Primary / secondary / university level (voting is not based on your school level as far as I know) it is a matter of whether eduaction is somehow readily available, reliable and your population has sufficient information to be able to make a decision (so far close to 70% of the population in China is rural, many without any communciation access to the outside world).

    It is not a matter of level of income - it is a matter of at what point your basic needs are secured and you are able to think, entertain the idea of politics....
    You are being very vague, and arguments like this are used by those in power to deny rights to those without power - because not enough have access to education..some do not not have access to inside toilets and so on..

  10. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    You are being very vague, and arguments like this are used by those in power to deny rights to those without power - because not enough have access to education..some do not not have access to inside toilets and so on..
    Well if we are going to reduce this to insults, you appear not to be listening (as it were) to any of the comments being made. If you do not have an open mind, why bother debating?

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