4 June censorship in China

Reply
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast
  1. #61

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    150

    Many Hong Kong people do care.

    Yes, democracy may not be what the poor peasant is thinking when he is brekaing his back tilting the land. But he is probably thinking why his local party cadre has forced him off his land without proper compensation; why his daughter is harassed by local officials and when he reported to the police or the court he is turned away, then beaten by thugs; why, when he goes to Beijing to seek justice from the central government department that deals with these issues, he cannot get any access for months and months, until the local cadres come and threaten to beat him to death if he doesn't go back to the village; whether, he might think, it would help if he expose the injustice to the media; and why the editor of the only newspaper in town which published stories like his was soon fired.

    These are the ills of the dictatorship. Fairly common traits of all dictatorships, as one can imagine. Sure, the Chinese government has accomplished a lot. It has improved the lives of many. It has its good sides. But do these things justify the injustice? Do we have to satisfy ourselves with the believe that, without such injustice and suppression, there can be no progress? Either suppression or starvation? Is it too much to demand progress in both economics and social justice/rights? This is what the Beijing students demanded in 1989. They wanted less corruption by party cadres, they wanted more freedom, while the country was undergoing dramatic market transformation. They also wanted some form of democracy, as it is clearly a possible way to achieve these goals. And what they got was bullets and tanks. Since then, control had been tightened, not loosened, in China, in order to prevent another mass demonstration like that. Today, it is inconceivable that anything close to the scale of the 1989 demonstration can even begin to form, because they will be thoroughly suppressed at the roots.

    The need for redress of the 1989 incident is not justified by the debate about whether a copy of Western Democracy is suitable for China, whether stability is more important than freedom, whether economic growth is more important than freedom and justice. These are false choices. The need to redress June 4 comes from the need for a governemnt to acknowledge its brutality, and commit that it will not do it again, that it should aim at providing justice and clean government to the people, while striving for economic betterment. Is this too much to ask? Is this not the basic responsibility of any government?

    So we will remember June 4, because people in the Mainland are forgetting. It's our responsibility to remember what happened, where we can, and remind ourselves what a government is capable of doing, what it has done, and what it must not do again. A nation that forgets its own history, is a truly frightening one.

    Last edited by JT06; 04-06-2009 at 06:27 PM.

  2. #62

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    15,115

    just took a walk in central and now back at work.

    seems the hk police are out in force tonight.


  3. #63

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HK
    Posts
    14,593
    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    You are being very vague, and arguments like this are used by those in power to deny rights to those without power - because not enough have access to education..some do not not have access to inside toilets and so on..
    Well, I am being vague because contrary to what you seem to believe, politic isn't black or white....it is mostly gray. It a "science" of compromise, deals, negotiation.

  4. #64

    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    HK
    Posts
    14,593
    Quote Originally Posted by JT06:
    The need to redress June 4 comes from the need for a government to acknowledge its brutality, and commit that it will not do it again, that it should aim at providing justice and clean government to the people, while striving for economic betterment. Is this too much to ask? Is this not the basic responsibility of any government?

    So we will remember June 4, because people in the Mainland are forgetting. It's our responsibility to remember what happened, where we can, and remind ourselves what a government is capable of doing, what it has done, and what it must not do again. A nation that forgets its own history, is a truly frightening one.
    Thanks for those words. I do not think anybody is arguing this.

  5. #65

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Kowloon HK
    Posts
    1,227
    Quote Originally Posted by Mat:
    Because it a symbolic moment hugely debated in the western media. The fact that the chinese gvt openly denies it makes it even more symbolic. That's why you have such fascination (before everybody jump on me, I am not judging here...)
    [bold emphasis mine]

    Not only is the Chinese govt denying those few days in early June 1989, that PhD student, I mentioned, studying here in HK is also saying that "that incident" didn't happen. The PLA did not open fire on people in T. SQ. "Those troublemakers needed 'a show of force' to control the situation before more chaos took over. That was it." Hm...

    Anyway, agree... let's not jump about mad here

    And, I'll take back a little of my earlier "disheartening" comment... which is not fair to the MANY local HKers, mainlanders, and overseas folks, who turned out to PACK Victoria Park - bursting at the seams, spilling onto pavements - this dry, fine, yet sweaty evening. I've picked two outta dozens to post here - the ones taken from a height. (You'll get clearer/better shots in papers in the morn.)



    Last edited by emmie; 05-06-2009 at 01:22 AM. Reason: Oops, dunno how to resize pics - & too tired now. Nite, nite...

  6. #66

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    15,115

    was stuck at work last night, otherwise would have really have liked to be there :-(

    Enormous crowds in Hong Kong for Tiananmen Square vigil - Telegraph

    BTW has there been any official reaction from the HK and Chinese government on last night's vigil? Am wondering how they will try and spin this?

    Based on last night does Tsang still claim to speak for the whole of HK?


  7. #67

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    15,115

    Classic Chinese over-reaction to Clinton:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6428595.ece


  8. #68

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    4,026
    Quote Originally Posted by pin:
    Classic Chinese over-reaction to Clinton:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6428595.ece
    As much as I am a huge fan of Hilary Clinton, I think a reader's comment in the National Post (Canada) on her statement said it for me and it was something like 'ask the USA to release the names of those they are holding in Guantanamo' and see how they react.

    I really like how JT106 characterizes this issue for China and HKers however it always galls me that nations with their own lists of problems and shortcomings hector others about theirs.

    Quite frankly these statements from world leaders are about politics in their own countries versus seeking redress and justice for those who died or suffered at Tiananmen plaza 20 years ago.

    While I have no contempt for the mass media- they have a job to do and they do it a particular way - this article in the LA Times is a bit much. The news of metal detectors and the plaza cordoned off and tents etc sounds like it is there for the 20th anniversary, it seems they must have got it up very early as I was there on May 12 and all that stuff was in place that day. I suspect a lot more army and police there this week though but that is also understandable.

    No ordinary day at Tiananmen Square - Los Angeles Times

  9. #69

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    15,115
    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    As much as I am a huge fan of Hilary Clinton, I think a reader's comment in the National Post (Canada) on her statement said it for me and it was something like 'ask the USA to release the names of those they are holding in Guantanamo' and see how they react.

    I really like how JT106 characterizes this issue for China and HKers however it always galls me that nations with their own lists of problems and shortcomings hector others about theirs.

    Quite frankly these statements from world leaders are about politics in their own countries versus seeking redress and justice for those who died or suffered at Tiananmen plaza 20 years ago.

    While I have no contempt for the mass media- they have a job to do and they do it a particular way - this article in the LA Times is a bit much. The news of metal detectors and the plaza cordoned off and tents etc sounds like it is there for the 20th anniversary, it seems they must have got it up very early as I was there on May 12 and all that stuff was in place that day. I suspect a lot more army and police there this week though but that is also understandable.

    No ordinary day at Tiananmen Square - Los Angeles Times
    Re the police presence. I was there last weekend and yes, our bags got searched etc and there were lots of police, military and plain clothed "officials" around as well.

    However yesterday they were also checking people's paperwork and turning away certain people (i.e. journalists) from entering, for unspecified reasons.

  10. #70

    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    2,264

    im still slightly confused about the objectives of the people who were at the vigil.

    from what i gather:

    the vigil is to remember those who died on june 4th 1989.

    but it appears the speakers were telling China to acknowledge the events and apologise? (lest we forget... there were also PLA soldiers amongst the dead)

    and some posters on this thread are suggesting democracy?


Reply
Page 7 of 9 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 LastLast