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Manila Hostage Crisis

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  1. #21

    I hope that's your agreement that all of them are over dramatic terms that exist in nowhere other than our minds? Pain and fear fuel violence and dispair fuels fear and detachment from our victims. If we let these take over us, we all are the axles of evil, the wheels of fear and the tyres of torment.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Yes indeed - they're right up there with the Brakes from Hell, the Wheels of Fear, and the Tyres of Torment.
    Last edited by LoveNinaSimon; 29-08-2010 at 02:00 AM.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoveNinaSimon:
    I hope that's your agreement that all of them are over dramatic terms that exist in nowhere other than our minds? Pain and fear fuel violence and dispair fuels fear and detachment from our victims. If we let these take over us, we all are the axles of evil, the wheels of fear and the tyres of torment.
    Our victims? I'm not holding anyone hostage.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    God, who is the guy in that video? He made me want to retch.

    I tend to agree with what he said. This could have happened anywhere. As a pro-gun American, I exercise my right to carry a firearm for this simple reason. My relatives in HK or even my own family members will never understand it. The culture is different, they all want to believe that crazy irrational people aren't out there or that the police will always be there to protect you. We have people like that here in the United States as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Obviously, nobody should blame any random Filipino for what happened. And, while Alpha has a point about the Chinese tourist herd mentality, that wasn't at fault in this situation (in fact, at least one tourist died heroically struggling with the gunman, while the police cowered outside). The truth is that the Manila police couldn't have screwed up the situation worse if they had tried. One of the things that made me really angry was the cop who said that even though there were multiple opportunities for taking this guy out, they didn't do it because 'he wasn't actually shooting anybody'. Yes, we are so evolved now in the Philippines that we are afraid to shoot a hostage taker until after he kills all of the hostages. I guess that's where we are going with a non-judgmental approach to crime.
    I wouldn't blame this on herd mentality, but how many in the group rose up to fight while that one person stepped into action? This is pacifism. I don't suggest that there wouldn't have been collateral damage, but the figures may have been different if ALL of them rushed him in a concerted effort that was well thought out and formulated. Did they spend the day taking inventory of what they had with them that could have been used as improvised weapons or did they sit still thinking that this will be all over with soon? Animals at the slaughter house have no choice, they wait to be slaughtered. Even so, many livestock has taken human life because of their instinct to live.


    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Everyone has a right to be angry at the Manila police department. For the Filipinos generally, they deserve our help, sympathy, and support - after all, while we foreigners can choose to visit Manila on a lark, they have to actually go on living there. Oh, and give your DH a raise, everyone. She deserves it.
    There isn't even a need to discuss the inept actions of the Manila Police. They would have had better results with cheerleaders in pink armed with water pistols. There were numerous opportunities to take a kill shot, double tap to end this crisis early on. The reporters had an opportunity to snap this shot, were the snipers at lunch?

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoveNinaSimon:
    I hope that's your agreement that all of them are over dramatic terms that exist in nowhere other than our minds?
    I don't think that "Axles of Evil" existed anywhere except in your mind until you posted it!

    The term you were looking for is "Axis of Evil".

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    God, who is the guy in that video? He made me want to retch.

    Obviously, nobody should blame any random Filipino for what happened. And, while Alpha has a point about the Chinese tourist herd mentality, that wasn't at fault in this situation (in fact, at least one tourist died heroically struggling with the gunman, while the police cowered outside). The truth is that the Manila police couldn't have screwed up the situation worse if they had tried. One of the things that made me really angry was the cop who said that even though there were multiple opportunities for taking this guy out, they didn't do it because 'he wasn't actually shooting anybody'. Yes, we are so evolved now in the Philippines that we are afraid to shoot a hostage taker until after he kills all of the hostages. I guess that's where we are going with a non-judgmental approach to crime.

    Everyone has a right to be angry at the Manila police department. For the Filipinos generally, they deserve our help, sympathy, and support - after all, while we foreigners can choose to visit Manila on a lark, they have to actually go on living there. Oh, and give your DH a raise, everyone. She deserves it.
    I've tried to respond 2x with a message that the admin has to approve and neither message has appeared.

    At any rate, I think you've mistook my point. I wasn't referring to the victim's herd mentality. I was pointing to their lack of action, their waiting for 10 hours just to end the way they did. Chinese people from Hong Kong are especially timid and lack the confidence to ENGAGE any situation. This can be said for my own family members as well. I just choose not to be like that, perhaps it is my American upbringing. If I am going down, I am going down fighting. Not to single out the other poster. But this is part of what she said "I didn't dare to voice my view to my friends who are passionate about the event." This is so classic HK Chinese. The fear to engage just because the other opinion is louder or more passionate. HK people know the difference between right and wrong, but often look the other way, let OTHERS act, let OTHERS call the police, don't get involved. How many of the dead victims died fighting along side the one guy who stood up? During the 10 hours, did they formulate a plan? Come up with improvised weapons? I am not suggesting that there might not have been collateral damage, but to end with such a massacre?

    I think it is pointless to continue beating the dead horse in regards to the incompetence of the Manila police. They may as well have been cheerleaders with water pistols. There are numerous opportunities where a sniper could have taken a kill shot, even double tap. There are many images on the web showing the assailant looking out from the bus where reporters got a clear shot. Why the in-action? Because he is one of their own? The moment he took hostages, he became a terrorist and should have been treated as such. If he let the hostages go, he would have drawn enough attention to make his point. The in-action of the Manila police is a big part of the reason why these hostages died.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha77:
    I think it is pointless to continue beating the dead horse in regards to the incompetence of the Manila police. They may as well have been cheerleaders with water pistols. There are numerous opportunities where a sniper could have taken a kill shot, even double tap. There are many images on the web showing the assailant looking out from the bus where reporters got a clear shot. Why the in-action? Because he is one of their own? The moment he took hostages, he became a terrorist and should have been treated as such. If he let the hostages go, he would have drawn enough attention to make his point. The in-action of the Manila police is a big part of the reason why these hostages died.
    Absolutely, 100% correct there. It isn't just us 'uncivilized' bloodthirsty 'mericans who see that clearly. Any law competent law enforcement agency anywhere would have taken the guy out. Why the Manila police were so hapless is a mystery and the cause of all the anger - which should be directed at them, of course, not at Filipinos in general; if anything they deserve our sympathy since they have to put up with an incompetent and corrupt government on a day-to-day basis.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Oh, and give your DH a raise, everyone. She deserves it.
    I don't know what you are trying to achieve here. Your post would've been great without this last bit of hypocritical suggestion. It is sad to see someone generally knowleagable and wise worryingly sick about being attacked by the frequent visitors to this site (many of them clearly British, Canadians and Australians who love to call others racist by making even more outrageous racist accusations themselves), and decided to add pathetic pandering comments. Be principled and you may actually earn more respect.
    Last edited by paenme; 29-08-2010 at 01:25 PM.
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  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    I don't know what you are trying to achieve here. Your post would've been great without this last bit of hypocritical suggestion. It is sad to see someone generally knowleagable and wise worryingly sick about being attacked by the frequent visitors to this site (most of them clearly British, Canadians and Australians who love to call others racist by making even more outrageous racist accusations themselves), and decided to add pathetic pandering comments. Be principled and you may actually earn more respect.
    Aw, come on Paenme. I'm just saying let's just give the helpers a break. They have it tough enough already.
    Last edited by Freetrader; 29-08-2010 at 01:23 PM.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    I don't know what you are trying to achieve here. Your post would've been great without this last bit of hypocritical suggestion. It is sad to see someone generally knowleagable and wise worryingly sick about being attacked by the frequent visitors to this site (most of them clearly British, Canadians and Australians who love to call others racist by making even more outrageous racist accusations themselves), and decided to add pathetic pandering comments. Be principled and you may actually earn more respect.
    I think Freetrader should lobby for his apartments management company (providing he isnt a tenant, no right to vote otherwise ) to pay all the doorman, and grounds staff, $3600 a month more than the pittance they get now. Then they might be able to save some money per month. Being on Old Peak road, it is the least you can do for the PEOPLE of HONG KONG.... Right back at ya, with provocative comments like that.

    If you are not a landlord, then you should contact somebody who is, in the building, and see the yearly budget for the staff, under that management company, look closely at what they are paid... It's less usually less than $7,000 a month, yet these people that serve you on a daily basis, have to pay their own transport costs, food, lodging, medical costs, utility costs and so on. The FDH does not !

    Your average FDH in HK, manages to save considerably more than most low level HK Chinese workers, and if employed by a civilised family, will definitely enjoy superior living conditions, than the average low paid, HK Chinese worker...

    Don't spare a thought for HK Chinese locals who aren't able to save any money, do ya's...
    Last edited by Skyhook; 29-08-2010 at 01:51 PM.
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  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha77:
    I've tried to respond 2x with a message that the admin has to approve and neither message has appeared.

    At any rate, I think you've mistook my point. I wasn't referring to the victim's herd mentality. I was pointing to their lack of action, their waiting for 10 hours just to end the way they did. Chinese people from Hong Kong are especially timid and lack the confidence to ENGAGE any situation. This can be said for my own family members as well. I just choose not to be like that, perhaps it is my American upbringing. If I am going down, I am going down fighting. Not to single out the other poster. But this is part of what she said "I didn't dare to voice my view to my friends who are passionate about the event." This is so classic HK Chinese. The fear to engage just because the other opinion is louder or more passionate. HK people know the difference between right and wrong, but often look the other way, let OTHERS act, let OTHERS call the police, don't get involved. How many of the dead victims died fighting along side the one guy who stood up? During the 10 hours, did they formulate a plan? Come up with improvised weapons? I am not suggesting that there might not have been collateral damage, but to end with such a massacre?

    I think it is pointless to continue beating the dead horse in regards to the incompetence of the Manila police. They may as well have been cheerleaders with water pistols. There are numerous opportunities where a sniper could have taken a kill shot, even double tap. There are many images on the web showing the assailant looking out from the bus where reporters got a clear shot. Why the in-action? Because he is one of their own? The moment he took hostages, he became a terrorist and should have been treated as such. If he let the hostages go, he would have drawn enough attention to make his point. The in-action of the Manila police is a big part of the reason why these hostages died.
    I don't disagree with most of what you said, including the generally timid and non-confrontational nature of the HKers and other Chinese groups which help form such frustrating stereotypes. I would like to point out though, United 93 was a lesson learned after 3 planes had already gone down. I highly doubt the tour bus incident would not serve as a wake-up call to the Chinese people in how and where they'll travel and prepare for potential similar crisis situations in the future.
    Last edited by paenme; 29-08-2010 at 01:40 PM.

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