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  1. #21

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    There are spaces in International Schools and local schools, just not the ones that people have their sights set on just like not everyone gets to go to Harvard or Oxford... That's the way it goes with PRIVATE schools...

    Expats don't HAVE to choose ESF schools, they receive subsidies from the government and in return, they are to first serve the local community who pays their taxes. There are plenty of schools where foreign expats can register their kids regardless of where they live.

    Knowing how some parents are, they would put their kids on every possible list, wait until the last minute and cause all kinds of aggravation in order to delay or make the acceptance...

    By the way, under your logic... the expat would put the child on the wait list and time his/her arrival so that they have the flat by the time the acceptance arrives(or not). That really doesn't make much difference except perhaps being slightly higher a longer wait list. You would still have no more guarantee to have a place, only maybe a better chance but since the list would be longer, there could be more people ahead.

    What you really want is be able to secure a place before you arrive in HK which isn't possible in any scenario and for good reasons.

    This "logical" debate reminds me of a situation I had to deal with where I was labeled a knucklehead administrator. Bus route is predetermined with certain stops where kids are picked up. Parents comes in and ask if it's possible to have their child picked up in their building since the bus passes in front in the morning. Answer is of course no, they get upset and feel the school isn't flexible, it's no big deal, only a minute or two yadi, yadi, yada... Flip side is that traffic is heavy coming into the school, if one parent is accommodated then all parents making the request would also need to be then possibly creating much longer delays causing larger traffic problems because timing is important. Many, many, many parents come in and see situations with thinking only of their own situation. As I said, I would want the school employees to serve the existing paying community with their time and not a whole bunch of possible future attendees.


  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdw:
    Back on the DB issue, DB is an isolated community far away from anywhere else in HK. It also happens to have a critical shortage of school places and kids living in DB who would love to go to the DB ESF are instead forced to be bused off to schools far away. At the same time, the DB ESF school is busing kids into DB from far away places.

    DB ESF places zero weight to anyone living in DB. To me this is ridiculous. Even more ridiculous is the rumors I hear (which I admit are only rumours) that the land they operate on was 'given' to them by the DB community and they dont pay government rates, water rates, etc. They are living off the DB residents but not putting anything back into the DB community. I dont live in DB so its not a me, me, me scenario here. I just think its ridiculous that a school in a place like DB doesnt have a catchment area, when to me this is the one ESF school where it actually makes most sense of all. All these 'business decisions' are great for ESF, but do not help the community and the kids.
    First, the land was donated by the government and not the DB residents(which has been the case for several other private independent schools). They receive no subsidies for that school therefore they must compete on the same footing as other private schools. What you are suggesting is that they change the rules to the disadvantage of their school which is NOT directly under the ESF umbrella therefore not competing on a fair footing with other similar establishments.

    It's a through train school(primary-secondary)unlike regular ESF establishments and they offer the IB program which is aimed at a higher caliber of students.

    You can blame the government for establishing a private school there but you can't blame ESF for running a private school the same way that others are run everywhere else. They are NOT there to primarily serve the community. They are private establishments and if you want to have a top school, you take top students. The regular ESF school can't really reject students from their catchment areas if they have the language skills.

  3. #23

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    OK Gilles, if I read you correctly, then I think we are agreeing on one thing: ESF school application procedure is not 'nice' for the overseas expat thinking to move to HK and trying to plan ahead for their kids education. Other schools have more suitable application procedures. Correct me I am wrong.

    For me, I think its a shame since ESF is otherwise a great system and being subsidised makes it more affordable for some who do not get the expat education allowance and really cant put their english speaking kids in a local school.

    Maybe Im being stubborn, but I really can't see why you just cant show the address proof at the time you sign the acceptance instead of the time you join the waiting list and then all problems magically disapear. Its basically the same with the immigration status. ie You need to have a dependent or other visa that allows you to go to school before you can start school, but you dont need it to join a waiting list. I imagine these 'administrative burdens' you are referring to would be very similar for both IMMIGRATION STATUS and ADDRESS PROOF. How come these ESF administrative knuckheads can manage one but not the other?


  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    First, the land was donated by the government and not the DB residents(which has been the case for several other private independent schools). They receive no subsidies for that school therefore they must compete on the same footing as other private schools. What you are suggesting is that they change the rules to the disadvantage of their school which is NOT directly under the ESF umbrella therefore not competing on a fair footing with other similar establishments.

    It's a through train school(primary-secondary)unlike regular ESF establishments and they offer the IB program which is aimed at a higher caliber of students.

    You can blame the government for establishing a private school there but you can't blame ESF for running a private school the same way that others are run everywhere else. They are NOT there to primarily serve the community. They are private establishments and if you want to have a top school, you take top students. The regular ESF school can't really reject students from their catchment areas if they have the language skills.
    Fair enough points. In this case, I blame the govt for building a private ESF school in a place where a public ESF (ie a school with a catchment area) would have made a lot more sense.

  5. #25

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    Yes the ESF school procedure could be friendlier to expats however as I explained, they are subsidized by the government and therefore MUST serve the tax paying community first. The expats that are away are not taxpayers and as I explained there are other options out there. I'm not certain but I would imagine that the two schools you complained about would probably let you be on the list as they operate as private independent schools. On one hand, you want them to behave one way but on the other hand you want the other. Both to the detriment of the establishment and the convenience of possible customers.

    As I explained, it makes no real difference whether they put you on the list when you're away or when you come to HK except for extra hassles for them. Your scenario would mean that the expat would somehow arrive at the right time to sign the acceptance letter and that there would be a better chance of entry which is not necessarily the case because the waiting lists would be much longer and more difficult to deal with.

    Also, one of the difference between a school and immigration is that very few people will have arguments with an immigration officer but somehow because you are or will pay a lot of money then people feel entitled to a lot more to say.

    As I said, from the point of view of a few expats, it's an extra irritation but from an administrative point of view, it's certainly not a knucklehead policy as you claim. From the point of view of the school, it's a much better policy and it serves the current paying customers better.


  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by bdw:
    Fair enough points. In this case, I blame the govt for building a private ESF school in a place where a public ESF (ie a school with a catchment area) would have made a lot more sense.
    That's a point you can make however having the government spend millions on elitists schools that are a leftover from the colonial era aimed at wealthier people when the regular public system is struggling a bit is also quite debatable...

    The subsidy has already been slashed and may be entirely eliminated in the future. It's unlikely that you will see other regular ESF schools see the light of day. They have already positioned themselves to compete with regular international schools by offering IB instead of the antiquated, restrictive and less reputable British A and O levels.

  7. #27

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    One more point, ask yourself how many countries have a government that heavily subsidizes private schools that serve expats...


  8. #28

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    You know the Aussie school offers waitlist priority to Australians APPLYING OUTSIDE OF HK as opposed to Australians APPLYING ALREADY LIVING IN HK. Its the complete reverse mentaliy of ESF. It has something to do with encouraging Australians to move to HK or whatever. Actually I dont really know the benefit this policy has on the school directly. Do they have a hidden agenda and receive some kind of kickbacks somewhere for this, or are they just being nice to Aussie expats relocating to a new country?


  9. #29

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    It's possible that they receive funding or "donations" from somewhere but it's not uncommon for schools that are associated with a nationality to be more accommodating. There are always perks associated with that...

    As to the local vs visiting, I would guess it's to counterbalance the fact that there are many dual HK/Australian passport holders over here.

    The canadian school for example received a visit from all the provincial premiers a few years back. That was quite a show and an excellent PR opportunity. However, I believe there is absolutely no advantage to being a Canadian when you apply. It's all about wait list and test scores...

    ESF is in the peculiar position of being stuck in between being a private international school and a colonial artifact from the British era...


  10. #30

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    It sometimes amazes me to see people criticize government officials or administrators and even insult the intelligence of these people who actually have the years of experience doing their job as opposed to the posters who generally have none yet somehow they think they are so much more intelligent that it makes no difference...