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How Racist is HK?

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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHairy:
    I don't see any argument and I certainly don't want to be involved in one.

    Hong Kong is fairly unique in that it uses English as a parallel language.

    Let me give you an example of the difference: I lived in Denmark for one year, after one year I could communicate in Danish, ditto Sweden and Swedish...why? Because you really can't function properly, longer term without learning the local language, it's that simple.
    The piece of the puzzle you may be missing is the non-English/non-Chinese speaking minority in Hong Kong.

    Arguments are okay if constructive or thought provoking.

  2. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creative83:
    The piece of the puzzle you may be missing is the non-English/non-Chinese speaking minority in Hong Kong.

    Arguments are okay if constructive or thought provoking.
    Maybe. And I'm very aware of these groups through my work. I don't want to oversimplify things Creative but I remember teaching at a school in Tin Shui Wai which had a relatively high number of students from Pakistan. These kids were born here but couldn't speak English or Chinese. The parents put a lot of pressure on us to provide special classes in English as they preferred English (It was a Chinese school). My question was, why do these kids not speak Chinese? Why haven't the parents been exposing them to local TV, local children etc? Some of them even felt that I should 'volunteer' to give free after school classes! In the end I felt they were taking the piss.

    If you have a mobile phone and willpower you can learn a new language. I think Hong Kong has a good point here...don't hand everything to people on a damn plate...I think kungpao meant that you 'can' flourish here, not that you necessarily 'will'...but you have to work for it...

  3. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHairy:
    Maybe. And I'm very aware of these groups through my work. I don't want to oversimplify things Creative but I remember teaching at a school in Tin Shui Wai which had a relatively high number of students from Pakistan. These kids were born here but couldn't speak English or Chinese. The parents put a lot of pressure on us to provide special classes in English as they preferred English (It was a Chinese school). My question was, why do these kids not speak Chinese? Why haven't the parents been exposing them to local TV, local children etc? Some of them even felt that I should 'volunteer' to give free after school classes! In the end I felt they were taking the piss.

    If you have a mobile phone and willpower you can learn a new language. I think Hong Kong has a good point here...don't hand everything to people on a damn plate...I think kungpao meant that you 'can' flourish here, not that you necessarily 'will'...but you have to work for it...
    I see what you're saying. Like the Jews who does well everywhere they go.

    I don't like to do this to you - but going back to the original argument...

    What would happen to say an Indonesian inside of France/UK/US if he doesn't speak English? He would survive but not flourish was the conclusion.

    By the same metric, what would happen to that same Indonesian in Hong Kong if he speaks neither English/Chinese? He might survive, but not 'flourish'.

    I guess there were just some eyebrow raising moments from some really anal people here. Nothing serious.

  4. #84

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creative83:
    What would happen to say an Indonesian inside of France/UK/US if he doesn't speak English? He would survive but not flourish was the conclusion.

    By the same metric, what would happen to that same Indonesian in Hong Kong if he speaks neither English/Chinese? He might survive, but not 'flourish'.
    What your saying does make sense but:

    "You can survive and flourish here in HK without integrating into the main stream." i.e. can. not will!

    Put enough hurdles in front of people and you'll eventually stop them, sure...on the other hand, removing all hurdles seems to breed laziness and apathy in welfare states.

    I suppose people are wondering which way is better...generally.

    Your Indonesian isn't a great example as, I would argue, he'd be unlikely to flourish in Indonesia or it's hard to imagine what he'd be doing here in the first place.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHairy:
    What your saying does make sense but:

    "You can survive and flourish here in HK without integrating into the main stream." i.e. can. not will!

    Put enough hurdles in front of people and you'll eventually stop them, sure...on the other hand, removing all hurdles seems to breed laziness and apathy in welfare states.

    I suppose people are wondering which way is better...generally.

    Your Indonesian isn't a great example as, I would argue, he'd be unlikely to flourish in Indonesia or it's hard to imagine what he'd be doing here in the first place.
    Great discussion and hope you all enjoyed the Mid-Autumn festival.

    I raised my point about integration because I notice it’s very common among the expat community in HK to criticize HK as a “xenophobic”, “racist” city with no “multi-culturalism”. Creative83 summarized it well: If Hong Kong is “xenophobic”, “racist” and lacks multi-culturalism, why is that integration (knowing its local language) isn't necessary for immigrants/expats to survive and flourish relative to say France/UK/US? Like Dirty Hairy said, many South Asians that were born and raised here can’t speak Cantonese. From their attitude, it seems that they are unwilling to learn rather than unable to learn. I don’t know much about South Asian communities in the US/UK, but from my personal experience in the US/UK, I would say most of the South Asians there are at least conversationally fluent in English.

    Maybe like what is raised in that book, HK simply has a different model of multi-culturalism? Instead of forcing people to assimilate into the mainstream, HK allows immigrants/expats to retain their culture, language and live in their own communities. Different cultures co-exist peacefully but seldom intersect.
    Last edited by kungpaochicken; 17-09-2016 at 11:14 AM.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by kungpaochicken:
    Great discussion and hope you all enjoyed the Mid-Autumn festival.

    I raised my point about integration because I notice it’s very common among the expat community in HK to criticize HK as a “xenophobic”, “racist” city with no “multi-culturalism”. Creative83 summarized it well: If Hong Kong is “xenophobic”, “racist” and lacks multi-culturalism, why is that integration (knowing its local language) isn't necessary for immigrants/expats to survive and flourish relative to say France/UK/US? Like Dirty Hairy said, many South Asians that were born and raised here can’t speak Cantonese. From their attitude, it seems that they are unwilling to learn rather than unable to learn. I don’t know much about South Asian communities in the US/UK, but from my personal experience in the US/UK, I would say most of the South Asians there are at least conversationally fluent in English.

    Maybe like what is raised in that book, HK simply has a different model of multi-culturalism? Instead of forcing people to assimilate into the mainstream, HK allows immigrants/expats to retain their culture, language and live in their own communities. Different cultures co-exist peacefully but seldom intersect.
    I think you're right. It's not a perfect system but neither is the European model of multiculturalism.

    In my experience, the idea of harmonious 'cultural integration' is a kind of myth. From what I see here and abroad, 'integrated' really means 'westernised'.

  8. #88

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    Lately there seems to be a bit of an increase in racism via the very groups that usually moan most about the subject, but, vexed toward Caucasian Europeans, instead.
    Oxford student Ntokozo Qwabe refused tip leading hundreds to donate £2k to white waitress | Daily Mail Online

    I experienced something similar in Nice, by an illegal car windshield washer at a set off traffic lights near the Nice Sud exit. Hurling racist Hitler abuse because I wouldn't let his squeegee touch my spotlessly clean windscreen and his arrogant expectation that he could behave in a hostile manner while my wife and kids were in the car, for a €2.00 hand out!

    Last edited by Skyhook; 17-09-2016 at 02:58 PM.

  9. #89

    Hard to believe this is from an Oxford student. This is similar to your experience in Nice - "vengeful" behaviour from non-white people blaming the whole white population for their imperialist and racist history.

    Have you experienced this in HK? I've never heard of such incidents here. ("Racist" and rude taxi drivers doesn't count)


    Quote Originally Posted by Skyhook:
    Lately there seems to be a bit of an increase in racism via the very groups that usually moan most about the subject, but, vexed toward Caucasian Europeans, instead.
    Oxford student Ntokozo Qwabe refused tip leading hundreds to donate £2k to white waitress | Daily Mail Online

    I experienced something similar in Nice, by an illegal car windshield washer at a set off traffic lights near the Nice Sud exit. Hurling racist Hitler abuse because I wouldn't let his squeegee touch my spotlessly clean windscreen and his arrogant expectation that he could behave in a hostile manner while my wife and kids were in the car, for a €2.00 hand out!

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by DirtyHairy:
    What your saying does make sense but:

    "You can survive and flourish here in HK without integrating into the main stream." i.e. can. not will!

    Put enough hurdles in front of people and you'll eventually stop them, sure...on the other hand, removing all hurdles seems to breed laziness and apathy in welfare states.

    I suppose people are wondering which way is better...generally.

    Your Indonesian isn't a great example as, I would argue, he'd be unlikely to flourish in Indonesia or it's hard to imagine what he'd be doing here in the first place.
    So tell me since you liked to insert and stress the word 'can' survive and thrive over the last couple of posts. Why wouldn't a non English/French speaking foreigner survive and thrive in UK/US/France? I mean they could, with their willpower, learn the language and get on with life, no?

    Or is it that when you guys describe US/UK/France, the country's environment acts upon the people - giving immigrants no chance there meanwhile when you describe Hong Kong, the perspective automatically switches to what the immigrant should do as oppose to using the same standard - which was whether the city allows people to survive and thrive given they don't speak the language?

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