China inc, stick in the mud or future innovator ?

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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris:
    PDLM - I took the view that the issue was that the participating firms where judged because they had main production in Australia. This is truly not the case with Coles and Myer. The article as I saw it was aimed at how Australian business practices could be improved? Hardly relevant if your not actually manufacturing their in any volume. Just a thought.
    You skimmed it a bit too fast. The question being addressed in the report is Corporate Social Responsibility right down the supply chain, whether that remains within Australia or goes offshore. It specifically looks both at companies who have kept their production onshore, and those (such as the ones you mention) who have taken a lot of it offshore.

  2. #22

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    Skyhook - Don't belittle the Chinese Auto industry - or do at your peril. ALL the majors are there and what is happening is that they are teaching the Chinese how to do their job.

    We all had a laugh at Tata in India but they are a financial force and buying brands like Jaguar and LandRover. The same way LandRover was bought by BMW to get expertise in building 4x4 / SUV. Now the X3 and X5 makes them a lot of money.

    You can laugh at the small China producers but they sell more than the Western ones in their domestic market. Now we have Hummer going to China ? Yes - Laugh - but its the technology they are after, The same way we all laughed at the Honda Step Through moped in the 60's or the little Honda cars in the 70's. We can plan the future by learning the lessons of the past and China is doing that - In Spades.

    Last edited by Boris; 19-07-2009 at 11:16 PM.

  3. #23

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    PDLM - Mmmmmmmm Corporate Social Responsibility. Yes I guess my eyes misted over because I just always recognize that as " the steam of the turd ". It never gets my interest because its always used as a lever to try and lock the door of protectionism, normally by unions or lefty pipe smokers in sandles on university grants.

    I see your point but really think the whole article is meaningless unless in support of ............... hell I'm bored already.


  4. #24

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    Boris, I do agree regarding TATA's decision to buying Jaguar, a much faster track to gaining access to intellectual property/patents etc Milking it for all its worth, which will trickle down to its own cars, and providing they have the good intention of maintaining the Jaguar marque so it survives into the future, like the Germans have done with Rolls Royce and Bentley, then i see that as being responsible, and a great corporate gesture. A win win situation.

    ( It was heavilly rumoured ) That China were in talks, or might still be, with GM-Holden Australia, with the intention of buying out the entire R & D mechanical engineering division, including the proving ground at the You Yangs. Not sure how that shaped up, now that GM USA has declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy, but it will certainly again, as you pointed out, give China much faster access to working out what QS1 ratings mean, and the importance of incorporating passenger safety into their vehicle designs, if they're successful..

    I could pop up some BYD or Cherry NCAP crash test videos from youtube, ( I'll spare you all ) which would have killed all of the front passengers ( dummies ) and failed dismally. Hardly 21st century levels of 4 or 5 star crash test proficiency that most of us take for granted when buying a new car.

    O.K couldn't resist.. China has achieved the worst crash test ever lol No mean feat considering this car competed with Russian made Lada's !!!! ..
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7VSHCgjbt0"]YouTube - Cherry Amulet - almost no chance to survive[/ame]

    And a Cheap Toyota Yaris for comparison
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGrNBxfpXVg"]YouTube - Toyota Yaris Crash Test[/ame]

    Which would you rather be in ?

    Last edited by Skyhook; 19-07-2009 at 11:47 PM.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris:
    Corporate Social Responsibility {is} always used as a lever to try and lock the door of protectionism, normally by unions or lefty pipe smokers in sandles on university grants.
    I've read it again and I don't find a single comment or proposal supporting protectionism (if by that you mean favouring Australian manufacturing over offshoring). The trend in Australia is the reverse - tariffs are reducing from 55% some years ago to a target of 5% in 2015. The removal of protection is apparently what has caused some disruption in the industry. But the report makes no distinction in its objectives between Australian and offshore manufacturing - it comes at CSR from an ethical level and proposes actions to apply those ethics globally without favouring any particular manufacturing base. And, as it points out, 40% of the workers in the industry in Australia are working in conditions well below the legal minimum.
    Last edited by PDLM; 19-07-2009 at 11:34 PM.

  6. #26

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    Skyhook - but you don't see Merc C or E class, BMW 3 series,GM Buick, VW Passat, Citroen Picassa etc etc ( made in China ) on Youtube video. What you see was BYD being naive and on the other hand BYD makes parts for BMW shipped to Germany. Some Merc Engines are made in China etc etc.

    Please don't colour your judgment by populist entertainment. There is a bigger picture being painted here.

    I was just looking at an article - NEC are now making LCD screens in China. Following the lead of Samsung and LG ( LCD and Plasma ) as I said before. Do you like the Phillps brand ? Highend audio visual. Made by TCL in Shenzhen with screens from LG. Global village indeed.


  7. #27

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    PDLM - I didn't say that. So whos skimming now ?

    I said It is always used as I lever. You don't have to be overt to direct the reader. You should understand subtext more than most ! I am even more bored now. Endex unless the OP has a question- we are high jacking his thread.


  8. #28

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    China enters passenger jet market

    Another clear example of what I am talking about. China decides to enter into the passenger plane industry, and who are they aiming at ? Bombardier lmfao.. Not Boeing, or Airbus, or Dassault or anybody worthy of air frame construction excellence.

    Would you still pay a premium price for your airfare, if the board at Cathay Pacific decided to increase its profits, by purchasing a fleet of China made ARJ21's because their Chief Financial Controller thought it was a good idea ? Good luck lol Would you feel safer ?

    Factor in that even the Mitsubishi MRJ regional jet is considerably more competitive than the Chinese plane of same type and configuration, is lighter, adopts more advanced avionics and uses a lot less fuel ( weight chews Jet A1 fuel ), and it proves they are way behind when they don't have access to other peoples intellectual property.

    On their own they aren't up there.
    Last edited by Skyhook; 20-07-2009 at 12:38 AM.

  9. #29

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    You can use the same argument that about China when it comes to the 'It's the bad guys ruining the reputation of..' - so don't give me that crock of sh1t.

    You can pretty much source anything you want from China - what 'quality' arrives at its destination is as much to do with your ability to put in place proper specifications, auditing and supplier selection (and that to include the 'soft' stuff such as labour relations, EHS issues, legislation).

    The Chinese have made stuff better than that available in other places - I could explain a little about Cd Se S Zr pigment systems at this point - but honestly - you don't want to sit through that.

    This argument to me is more about the global issue of labour, environment & ethical manufacturing issues. I don't see any nation being holier than thou on this issue - there are scummers who will save a few dollars so they can make a bit more profit and couldn't give a phuq if that means someone or something else suffers.

    When I was a kid cheap sh1t was made in Japan and Hong Kong, then Taiwan and S.Korea - now cheap sh1t is made in China - in a few years cheap sh1t will be made in the UK again. It has always been this way - study the porcelain industry.


  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Load Toad:
    You can use the same argument that about China when it comes to the 'It's the bad guys ruining the reputation of..' - so don't give me that crock of sh1t.

    You can pretty much source anything you want from China - what 'quality' arrives at its destination is as much to do with your ability to put in place proper specifications, auditing and supplier selection (and that to include the 'soft' stuff such as labour relations, EHS issues, legislation).

    The Chinese have made stuff better than that available in other places - I could explain a little about Cd Se S Zr pigment systems at this point - but honestly - you don't want to sit through that.

    This argument to me is more about the global issue of labour, environment & ethical manufacturing issues. I don't see any nation being holier than thou on this issue - there are scummers who will save a few dollars so they can make a bit more profit and couldn't give a phuq if that means someone or something else suffers.

    When I was a kid cheap sh1t was made in Japan and Hong Kong, then Taiwan and S.Korea - now cheap sh1t is made in China - in a few years cheap sh1t will be made in the UK again. It has always been this way - study the porcelain industry.
    i agree with this. i think its down to the communication and the influence of the buyers. companies can make good things with excellent quality in china but there are also some who cut corners to make more profit and thats why quality standards can also be lower.

    its up to the buyer to make sure the standards are up to scratch and be willing to take it to another supplier who can do the job properly. alot of big companies manufacture in china and have products which are of good quality, but when your orders are 90% of a companies income, then they will do everything they can to keep you happy and keep on buying.