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Saving the planet the Hong Kong way!

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  1. #11

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    Responding to dipper:

    Same thing, it wasn't a question of carbon anything, the Op was just asking what are peoples experiences of fuel & water reduction....

    ....Think how often you go to a beach or park and get upset by plastic bags and other waste, imagine if there were less of these everywhere.
    The topic was clearly entitled 'Saving the planet..." not 'Making making the beach more visually appealing.'


    Quote Originally Posted by kogia:
    ...the topic was about what people can do at home if they want to. ....

    I fear this thread will get sidetracked away from someone showing a little interest and asking questions about peoples experiences with alternative energy and water recycling .....
    But the genuinely significant things that people can do have little to do with alternative energy and water recycling. If you want to help the environment in HK (or anywhere) then the most significant things you can do are to move to a smaller apartment in a high rise building in the heart of the city close to your place of work and shopping and entertainment facilities. Then walk to work (or use public transportation), eat food mass-produced nearby, eat less meat and open the window (and turn on a fan if necessary) instead of using an air-con.
    Last edited by dipper; 07-02-2011 at 10:18 AM.
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  2. #12

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    PDLM's and Dipper's comments are more than warranted. The simple fact is that individual contributions such as solar panels and wind turbines for people living in apartments are silly. There are plans to install two large offshore wind farms though.

    In fact Hong Kong, as dipper points out, has already a very low CO2 footprint per capita, and the government has indicated a large move to reduce it by getting the electricity companies to switch to nuclear and gas generation from coal.

    On the water front Hong Kong uses treated sea water for sewage through a separate network as water has always been scarce.

    The big issues here are waste and particulate emissions. A lot of recycling here happens through waste scavenging as there are no real formal ways of collecting recyclable waste.

    On the particulate front, which is a major problem, if "clear the air" could get off their high horse on smoking and focus more on the elephant in the room instead we might get some progress.

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  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by fth:
    PDLM's and Dipper's comments are more than warranted. The simple fact is that individual contributions such as solar panels and wind turbines for people living in apartments are silly. There are plans to install two large offshore wind farms though.
    And on what scientific basis are you certain of that? Apart from the fact that no mention was made for living in apartments. If however, that is just what the OP was referring specifically to, then that might change possibilities and benefits, but that wasn't stated.

    The OP asked for shared experiences or knowledge of this, but so far sadly the thread has been highjacked by opinions from the standard cry of 'do nothing because it's all pointless'. As it's been highjacked anyway, perhaps it would be interesting to find out where these learned opinions are coming from, what is the basis of such well-informed opinions being thrown into the discussion?

    dipper - you are mashing up and mixing what I type to misquote it, that is sadly very easy and common on the internet, but it never proves a point, it just shows you can copy, paste and edit.

    I can cearly see where you are coming from with what you say, you are indicating that unless people make complete lifestyle changes they shouldn't bother to do anything, I strongly disagree. I think small changes with little effort are better than nothing at all and if more and more people did small changes that don't take much effort, then logically that would accumulate, just as all the little bits of waste accumulate.
    Last edited by kogia; 07-02-2011 at 10:49 AM.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by kogia:
    dipper - you are mashing up and mixing what I type to misquote it, that is sadly very easy and common on the internet, but it never proves a point, it just shows you can copy, paste and edit.
    No problem, I don't think that's what I've done but tell me where I've misquoted you and I'll happily respond to that.

    I don't think anyone is arguing that we should do nothing, personally I'm arguing that if people want to do something that they should do the things that genuinely make the most difference. Living in an apartment close to where you work, using public transport, buying food produced in the region and opening a window and turning off the air-con are all things that people can do quite easily in Hong Kong and have much more impact than many of the more fashionable things. What's the problem?

    If you want to collect rainwater too, that's cool, it doesn't do any harm. But doing the easy things that genuinely help protect the environment first seems quite sensible to me.
    Last edited by dipper; 07-02-2011 at 11:06 AM.
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  5. #15

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    Apart from the fact that no mention was made for living in apartments.
    Perhaps because the vast majority of people live in one, have you been into the urban areas yet, or perhaps looked out of the airplane window when you last flew in?

    but so far sadly the thread has been highjacked by opinions from the standard cry of 'do nothing because it's all pointless'
    As my post had pointed out, there are quite a few initiatives taking place here. Sadly the majority of energy consumption happens in the commercial space (see article below), not the domestic one. Therefore to make a lasting significant impact corporate behaviour needs changing. Items to include would be

    1. Change HK's building codes to enforce energy efficiency
    2. Ban/remove high emissions vehicles (largely trucks and busses)
    3. Impose a requirement on the shipping industry to use low emission fuel in local waters (like Singapore does)
    4. Change HK's energy/fuel mix in electricity generation (under way)

    HK's greenhouse gas proposals will be ineffective and expensive | HK Green Watch | Latest Hong Kong, China & World News | SCMP.com

    If you want to help the planet. Try the more practical solutions like

    1. Get a modern air con unit, and use it sparingly
    2. Get an energy efficient fridge
    3. If you need to hire a delivery truck, don't hire someone with old ones
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  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by jthorne19:

    I did come across one Italian inventor based in Hong Kong who created a vacumm mold windmill that you can attach pretty much anywhere, even on rented flats perhaps and you could just un-install them when leaving.

    check the link out

    MotorWave
    I've met this guy. I've toured his factory, discussed how these things could be fitted and acted as an intermediary between him and a potential bulk purchaser in Australia. Basically, you cannot use them for normal electricity because they are DC not AC and so you need to convert. The size of the units for the amount of electricity you get out means you need the entire side of a building for lighting just a room (more or less). The economics of them are way off the economics of power from the grid, and he won't deal with the grid because he "doesn't like utilities". Well, like it or not, if you don't produce a product that the grid can use it's darn hard to get the scale needed to bring the economics into line.

    It's all very well being keen on the environment, but you do actually have to KNOW something about the facts. Sometimes the results are not at all intuitive. For example - take a look at this report on the current HK 50:40:10 policy:

    http://lantaugroup.com/files/Pique%2...as%20Feb11.pdf

    It highlights that even the Government policy here is pretty uneconomic.
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  7. #17

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    The point is that regardless of all those lovely little initiatives, it makes very little difference at all except to make the person feel better about themselves. I'm all for it since there's no harm in it but to delude yourself and think it makes one iota of difference is very naive. Whether it's the "big" and "better" suggestions or the small little ones, they amount to the same thing...Flatter your ego

    I certainly wouldn't criticize one individual initiative over the next since there's really not much difference. I don't think on an individual basis that riding a bike or living in an apartment, recycling plastic bags, not using your air con, using solar panels or having a windmill on your house is better or worse. If it makes you happy and you feel you are doing your bit then fabulous, just do it.

    On a global scale, it's nothing and you will never get people to change unless there's an immediate and dangerous threat, you hit people's wallet or enact laws. So if anything is to really be done, it should be to get governments to make significant policy changes... a very difficult thing to do in a place lacking democracy.

    I do find it a bit ridiculous to say do this instead of that... Why not do this as well as that instead? It's not like people aren't able to do two things at the same time.


  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by fth:
    Perhaps because the vast majority of people live in one, have you been into the urban areas yet, or perhaps looked out of the airplane window when you last flew in?
    You are quite right, I don't know why I didn't immediately think that all the OP said was relating to HK apartment living, but you are right it probably was. Regarding the OP there is definitely less that is viable in terms of alternative fuels and such if you are living in a large apartment block. Smaller blocks possibly, but you would really have to combine the whole block for anything effective. In village area you have more options, but then as dipper says you may already be doing more in a block just by virtue of taking up less space in a block with less commute fuel.

    dipper - the mis-mashed quote I was referring to was regarding beach litter, I used that as an example regarding another comment about plastic bags and carbon emissions, I wasn't talking about plastic bags in relation to the OP topic, that's why the plastic bag comment wasn't next to what you quoted it with, anyway, this now feels like a daft 'who said what to whom' thing.

    I don't have a problem with what your saying as such, I just disagree with the view that small things don't matter. I'm not some mad eco-warrior with no knowledge, I am a qualified ecologist and zoologist, I've worked in marine biology and for an ecological consultancy for large development firms, I've seen both sides and have spent time editing scientific papers on a range of biological subjects, I am naturally cynical, but I still believe that the more and more people that do small things, some of which you suggested then eventually it will become more normal and then will start to make a difference and then we can all maybe try bigger steps. Plus to me it seems pointless to not do the small things that make no difference to me, they certainly won't make it any worse and they may possibly in some small way make it better.

    As this forum proves, most people are not willing to do small steps, why try and make them leap straight into big ones?

    We all know that one or a hundred people recycling their water won't do squat, but initially the movement for most things that we now take for granted started off small.
    Last edited by kogia; 07-02-2011 at 12:33 PM.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by PDLM:
    Kid,

    Go away, educate yourself (rather than just reading Greenpeace propaganda), do some sums and then come up with something more realistic would you? There have been lots of studies of this. For example: http://www.weather.gov.hk/publica/tnl/tnl077.pdf shows that the mean wind power density in urban areas is about 100-150W/sq.m. Even assuming you could capture that at 30% efficiency (highly unlikely for, say, a residential property which will have a windmill attached on one side of a building only) and that the property had space to install the big batteries necessary to store that electricity to ensure a smooth supply, and room for the inverter to get 220VAC from the batteries. And ignoring the cost of all that. Then you would need about 5 square metres of windmills just to knock HK$100 per month off your electricity bill.

    It doesn't add up.
    I understand you points here PDLM, I am open to suggestions. I have never once stated that i know more than any body else nor have i come across that way. I am welcome to be educated but the way you put yourself across is nothing short of ridiculous. Addressing me as 'kid' is just foolish. Let's stand out of your boxed view of the world for a second and allow me to offer you a new paradigm. Purely as a gift.

    I do not care about the cost. It is irrelevant.Part of the title is 'saving the earth' not 'saving my wallet' It is your point of view that is crushing the very point of saving the earth. I am meaning this in the nicest way possible. I am operating out of the goodness of my heart on this.

  10. #20

    Thankyou for the input from you all. I would just like to clarify to people that I am very open to suggestions. I do not claim to know everything on this. If you look at my original posts, they do mention that I am wanting input, ideas and/or feedback from anyone who has chosen to live in a way that positively impacts the Earth.

    I didn't intend for this forum to become a battleground. The motivation for my post is simply that I would like to impact the Earth as positively as possible. Cost is not my concern. I want to be as self reliant as possible. We all should not be paying anything to live on this planet, However that is another forum in itself and I wish to not incite any anger.