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A question on individualism vs collectivism

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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    As society becomes wealthier and a formal welfare state develops things change
    Look at HK, it sure is wealthy, but is it a welfare state? That's also true for Singapore, Taiwan, Korea etc. Collectivist cultures have limited welfare, while people in self-reliant and independent individualistic cultures prefer massive government support and get their pride from patriotism. That's the weird contrast.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by kungpaochicken:
    Look at HK, it sure is wealthy, but is it a welfare state? That's also true for Singapore, Taiwan, Korea etc. Collectivist cultures have limited welfare, while people in self-reliant and independent individualistic cultures prefer massive government support and get their pride from patriotism. That's the weird contrast.
    Spain comes out as slightly collectivist but has a strong welfare state, much stronger than the USA which is highly individualistic. The Philippines is quite strongly collectivist and has a weak welfare system but the desire and the momentum is to have a much stronger welfare system. Things are more complex.

    Are people in individualist countries more nationalistic than collectivist countries? I am really not sure about this. They are much more nationalistic in the Philippines than in the UK generally but that is only two countries.

  3. #23


    This one is interesting. The most individualistic states are almost all welfare states.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by kungpaochicken:


    This one is interesting. The most individualistic states are almost all welfare states.
    They are also the wealthiest. Spain and Portugal have quite strong welfare benefits. Where does the USA fit in your theory?

  5. #25

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    Original Post Deleted
    All but free healthcare as well, free education.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    All but free healthcare as well, free education.
    But no pension, poor sick / disability pay and unemployment benefit.

    I would suggest when you fall on hard time the state doesn't help so family is still needed.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    But no pension, poor sick / disability pay and unemployment benefit.

    I would suggest when you fall on hard time the state doesn't help so family is still needed.
    There is a pension, or elderly allowance, isn't there - just pitifully low. Just being pedantic.

    There may be something in the individualist - welfare state thing but I am not convinced that is the causality.
    kungpaochicken likes this.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    There is a pension, or elderly allowance, isn't there - just pitifully low. Just being pedantic.
    You are correct. Pitifully low

    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    There may be something in the individualist - welfare state thing but I am not convinced that is the causality.
    I could dig some research papers out but not sure it is worth the reward. The middle class millennials in major cities in China have probably normalised to having the similar 'family' support networks and middle class millennials in other major cities. I do believe society and people react to the environment, rules, provisions and laws they operate in. I think the whole East, West, North, South thing is over played. 20 years ago the 'family' in Lithuania was paramount. Today it is part of the EU that has minimum standards of governance and safety net.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by kungpaochicken:
    If you ask an American what is individualism, I'm sure he/she will have more to tell other than application on the extended family, community or such. Like "rugged individualism", self-reliance, self-expression, personal goals before collective goals...etc. Since a key part of individualism is self-reliance and independence, I find it a bit hard to reconcile with the fact that western individualistic countries are often welfare states. At least to me, relying on the government and relying on extended family / community makes no difference. You're still relying on the collective rather than yourself.
    I believe that individualism/collective is more so about freedom of choice in determining your life's path.

    In a collective society, a person has pressure to conform to the surrounding society (ie: your parents). Simplified: do what your parents (the collective) say or your life becomes very difficult. So the child needs become a doctor/engineer/lawyer.

    Individualism is that they can choose to go against their parents wishes and the welfare will help them where their parents won't. So the child can end up a barista or starving artist.

    Both have their merits/demerits and can be taken to different extremes.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Viktri:
    I believe that individualism/collective is more so about freedom of choice in determining your life's path.

    In a collective society, a person has pressure to conform to the surrounding society (ie: your parents). Simplified: do what your parents (the collective) say or your life becomes very difficult. So the child needs become a doctor/engineer/lawyer.

    Individualism is that they can choose to go against their parents wishes and the welfare will help them where their parents won't. So the child can end up a barista or starving artist.

    Both have their merits/demerits and can be taken to different extremes.
    You raise a very interesting point here. Government benefits and welfare actually serve as an "insurance", so people will have more freedom to be individualistic and determine their own path, because even if they fail, the government will at least support them through tough times...it is the good welfare that provides people the capacity to be individualistic!

    If all the welfare is taken away from an individualistic country...will it become collectivist just like the others? Maybe it doesn't have much to do with culture at all.