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should violent protesters be prosecuted and jailed?

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  1. #31

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    Help me out here.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrgoodkat:
    The bricks and petrol bombs are a natural result of the police action and government inaction. The protesters didn't start the violence.
    I feel as if this is the crux of it, a chicken or the egg problem.

    But having been personally at LegCo on 6/12, the date on which AntiELAB are demanding the retraction of the riot designation and much of this mayhem has stemmed from, I can attest that things were peaceful (tense, but non-violent) until a pipe-wielding, brick throwing mob of black shirts attempted to storm the building through a wall of riot cops protecting a building of civilians.

    This started at 3:30pm.

    https://twitter.com/timdayipper/stat...33051750494208
    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1138821787708473346

    The first gas didn't fly until 4pm.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...efiant-protest

    Why can't we be honest about that? Or am I missing something? What were cops supposed to do?
    Last edited by rook_hk; 06-08-2019 at 11:14 AM.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by rook_hk:
    I feel as if this is the crux of it, a chicken or the egg problem.

    But having been personally at LegCo on 6/12, the date on which AntiELAB are demanding the retraction of the riot designation and much of this mayhem has stemmed from, I can attest that things were peaceful (tense, but non-violent) until a pipe-wielding, brick throwing mob of black shirts attempted to storm the building through a wall of riot cops protecting a building of civilians.

    This started at 3:30pm.

    https://twitter.com/timdayipper/stat...33051750494208
    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1138821787708473346

    The first gas didn't fly until 4pm.

    https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...efiant-protest

    Why can't we be honest about that? Or am I missing something? What were cops supposed to do?
    I think most were already in agreement with that, although it was mostly umbrellas thrown. The problem with the police reaction is that they teargassed EVERYONE there, instead of the just the front group. In almost any subsequent protest the police seemed to have been the first to violently suppress largely peaceful protests.

    Also this whole saga is very much NOT a chicken or egg situation. The whole, completely needless extradition bill proposal came from the government in the first place, the government's further inaction for weeks is what causes the whole situation to spin out of control. Without this their would not be those protests, or need for the police brutality we have witnessed over the last weeks.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gatts:
    I think most were already in agreement with that, although it was mostly umbrellas thrown. The problem with the police reaction is that they teargassed EVERYONE there, instead of the just the front group. In almost any subsequent protest the police seemed to have been the first to violently suppress largely peaceful protests.
    I'm no expert on riot control technology but how would you selectively teargas a few individuals? Teargas has a wide area of effect and the intent is for crowd disbursement. If a group of potentially violent protesters are approaching me with hard objects with the possible intent to harm, you bet your ass I'd fire tear gas back at you.
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by tf19:
    I'm no expert on riot control technology but how would you selectively teargas a few individuals? Teargas has a wide area of effect and the intent is for crowd disbursement. If a group of potentially violent protesters are approaching me with hard objects with the possible intent to harm, you bet your ass I'd fire tear gas back at you.
    Because after they shot the teargas, they proceeded to violently clear out the whole site immediately, there was no need to. With police posing with smiling "job well done" pictures. As a reaction, 2 million people came out the Sunday afterwards.

  5. #35

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    "although it was mostly umbrellas thrown."

    It wasn't though, at least that wasn't my experience. Kids were pulling bricks and fashioning batons from fence poles as early at noon. SCMP corroborates this. Their intentions were clear and they executed it.

    "
    instead of the just the front group."

    I witnessed a few hundred people in the "front group", once they engaged the cops (very, very violently), the gas flew, and it became what any reasonable person would classify a riot. At that point the ability to delineate between identically dressed peaceful and violent protestors was near impossible.

    Regardless, if we're all in agreement that, protestors did, in fact, elicit the violence leading to the riot, why permit that to stand as a core demand?





  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by rook_hk:
    "although it was mostly umbrellas thrown."

    It wasn't though, at least that wasn't my experience. Kids were pulling bricks and fashioning batons from fence poles as early at noon. SCMP corroborates this. Their intentions were clear and they executed it.

    "
    instead of the just the front group."

    I witnessed a few hundred people in the "front group", once they engaged the cops (very, very violently), the gas flew, and it became what any reasonable person would classify a riot. At that point the ability to delineate between identically dressed peaceful and violent protestors was near impossible.

    Regardless, if we're all in agreement that, protestors did, in fact, elicit the violence leading to the riot, why permit that to stand as a core demand?




    You talk about your experience there but talk about "the protesters" as other than yourself. So what were you doing there?

  7. #37

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    I had the day off. I leave near Central, I heard about the situation so out of pure curiosity I walked over there around 2 to check it out.


  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by rook_hk:
    "although it was mostly umbrellas thrown."

    It wasn't though, at least that wasn't my experience. Kids were pulling bricks and fashioning batons from fence poles as early at noon. SCMP corroborates this. Their intentions were clear and they executed it.

    "
    instead of the just the front group."

    I witnessed a few hundred people in the "front group", once they engaged the cops (very, very violently), the gas flew, and it became what any reasonable person would classify a riot. At that point the ability to delineate between identically dressed peaceful and violent protestors was near impossible.

    Regardless, if we're all in agreement that, protestors did, in fact, elicit the violence leading to the riot, why permit that to stand as a core demand?




    Look at all videos of that day, and count the number of pipes/bricks as opposed to umbrellas/lighter stuff. Tells you all.

    Will you agree at least it's not an egg/chicken situation but everything is caused by the government and its continuing non-response?

  9. #39

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    You break a reasonable law, you should face the consequences.

    Burping while the national anthem plays is not a reasonable offense in my world, but damaging private or public property certainly is. Setting rubbish bins or whatever on fire is certainly an offence. Colluding with triads is an offence too.

    What worries me, all this violent action may achieve exactly the opposite, public sentiment goes to 'something-needs-to-be-done', and since the HK police does not have the manpower that would mean the PLA, and we know they will not hesitate to kill people if being told so. But maybe this is exactly what they told Carry Lam to do to make 2047 come 28 years earlier.

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  10. #40

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    Very quick question and yes, it is a bit trollish.

    - Have there been any videos of cops tackling the white shirts or blue shirts over the last few days? With all the media coverage, you'd have thought that the media from both sides would have highlighted these detentions.

    - Have the guys who shot of fireworks at the crowd, from a moving car been found?

    I do think there is a huge asymmetrical gap in the information that is being shoved into my face every day. The police force does (or did at some point) have a decent budget for its PR / outreach departments as does the government.

    Find an independent judge and jury and let this play out with both sides getting what is due to them.

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