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Why democracy?

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  1. #21

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    i definitively agree that many hk people just don't care. the key main reason in my view is simply because they never had it before.

    if you look at the progress of democracy around the world, then usually once people have it, they will want to keep it and build on it. very seldom people will accept to return to old ways.

    actually i think hk people are very clever and would do well under a fully elected legco and leaders. the reason weirdo's like long hair can get elected is because certain segments of the population feel so disenfranchised that they vote of radical elements. same thing happens in other democracies (e.g. the left party in eastern europe, right-wing nationalists in several european countries, etc.).


  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    1) That's a very simplistic view of the situation and it really depends on the business interests of each.

    2) Reagrdless, HK has progressed and has a plan in terms of getting to elect a democratic government and that's been done under China. On top of it, chinese citizen have more freedom than they've had in many decades. There's still plenty of repression but there has been significant progress made in the last 20 years.

    3) Your first statement was that China has no interest in being like HK and that has nothing to do with rule of Law or the CP's control over its citizen

    4) The fact that the gap between the rich and the poor is growing does not mean that the people are worse off than before. It doesn't necessarily mean the poor are getting poorer. You ask for source and evidence yet you provided none for your earlier sweeping statements.

    Here you can see steady growth of the GDP per capita and the prediction is that it will have doubled in 2013 from 1997

    Hong Kong GDP Per Capita (PPP), US Dollars data, GDP Per Capita (PPP), US Dollars Hong Kong

    Now if you can show for example that less people are paying tax now than in 1997 then you would have a leg to stand on in claiming that the poor are in fact getting poorer
    but your quoted stats also don't show the poor getting increased benefit from the increased GDP...perhaps it is simply the rich (and near-rich) getting richer...where is this extra tax revenue going, besides a $30B bridge to nowhere, a $60B train to nowhere, more filling in of the harbour, and fancy new govt digs at Tamar...?

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    The fact remains that countries that have democratically elected government are overall much richer and successful than the ones without.
    Interesting statement. I was not sure whether this was true or not. So, I looked up Wiki and found that this is probably not at all true.

    Countries with constitutional monarchies or absolute monarchies are doing very well for themselves, better infact than the majority of democratic countries. These monarchy countries include Bahrain, Brunei, Jordan, Kuwait, Liechtenstein, Monaco, the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

    With the exception of Jordan, all have above average, or very very high GDP per capital, if that is the way you want to measure wealth.

    If you look at Africa, the majority of countries are democratic and they would not be considered rich or successful under most definitions. And I won't even mention the Philippines.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by hk.com:
    Many downfalls of the HK system can be sorted now with the current system.
    I would have to agree with this. But, as timklip points out, the current "leaders" really have no idea.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile:
    Interesting statement. I was not sure whether this was true or not. So, I looked up Wiki and found that this is probably not at all true.

    Countries with constitutional monarchies or absolute monarchies are doing very well for themselves, better infact than the majority of democratic countries. These monarchy countries include Bahrain, Brunei, Jordan, Kuwait, Liechtenstein, Monaco, the UAE, Oman, Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

    With the exception of Jordan, all have above average, or very very high GDP per capital, if that is the way you want to measure wealth.

    If you look at Africa, the majority of countries are democratic and they would not be considered rich or successful under most definitions. And I won't even mention the Philippines.
    Notice that most of these places have one source of revenue? It's obviously not an absolute. Singapore has done very well for itself albeit with a free economy.

    China has done better than India with a lot less democracy.

    As to democracy in Africa, I assume you are joking...

  6. #26

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    the reason weirdo's like long hair can get elected is because certain segments of the population feel so disenfranchised that they vote of radical elements
    For his faults, at least Long Hair gives a phuq. I don't agree with all of his methods or his politics - but he does try to represent the people that elected him.

  7. #27

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    It is true that HK people have no real inkling of democracy. The Article 23 and protests are more manifestations of a dislike for China rather than a hankering for democracy.
    When people were making money under an undemocratic Governors, they loved them...no talk of democracy then until the 1997 issue came up. This I supposed is more of a racist attitude in that the Chinese are peasents, backward country bumpkins.


  8. #28

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    Amazon.com: Setting the People Free: The Story of Democracy (9781843542117): John Dunn: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515CG2DVTSL.@@AMEPARAM@@515CG2DVTSL

    Get that down yer.

    Democracy isn't something that arrives pure and complete - it is part of a journey and so far the best but not the easiest route to take.

  9. #29

    (The highly recommendable) Roland Soong:

    EastSouthWestNorth: Gini Index in Hong Kong

    Last edited by reinkarnation; 19-11-2009 at 06:42 PM.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    This I supposed is more of a racist attitude in that the Chinese are peasents, backward country bumpkins.
    Crap. Total nonsense.

    They just want the freedom to complain about the Government and get together and shame LegCo members whom they believe have acted insincerely or displayed any incompetence, and to do so without getting shot by the police.

    There was never any risk of this happening under British Rule.

    They do not want a Tiananmen Square incident here. They do not want to be suppressed.

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