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ROP 145 application process -please help

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  1. #21

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    Thanks IceEagle again.
    i am a bit confused now that I could only apply an ID thru ID997 form for our child. We don't want to move back to HK at the moment, I still have sisters and brother currently living in HK. It came to me very recently that my child can apply a ID thru my birth right. If we go thru the application(ID 997), does he need to stay in HK after receiving the ID card? Because I don't have to because I have a 3 stars ID card.
    Obviously he will continue his school in the states, I thought by obtaining an ID would offer him an option in the future, because I am considering to move back in a few years. Any advise


    JL

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by jclaird:
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=UICTFontTextStyleBody]Thanks IceEagle again.
    i am a bit confused now that I could only apply an ID thru ID997 form for our child.

    It came to me very recently that my child can apply a ID thru my birth right.
    I sympathize greatly with you. I feel that your child should have a lifelong chance to be able to apply for an ID through your birthright. Unfortunately, that's only true if he does so before he turns 21.

    Quote Originally Posted by jclaird:

    We don't want to move back to HK at the moment, I still have sisters and brother currently living in HK.

    Obviously he will continue his school in the states, I thought by obtaining an ID would offer him an option in the future, because I am considering to move back in a few years. Any advise

    If we go thru the application(ID 997), does he need to stay in HK after receiving the ID card? Because I don't have to because I have a 3 stars ID card.

    JL
    If he gets the ID card through ID 997, then yes he'll need to stay in HK for 7 continuous years in order to keep his rights to live and work in HK as an adult. If he gets the ID card but doesn't do this, he'll lose the right to live and work in HK when he turns 21.

    It seems like you have a difficult choice to make - to continue his schooling in the US and lose your son's rights to go to HK in the future, or secure his rights to HK now but give up schooling him in the US.

    I'm glad you are considering this now. If you had waited 6 years before thinking about this, then it would have been too late to secure anything for your son.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by IceEagle:
    I'm glad you are considering this now. If you had waited 6 years before thinking about this, then it would have been too late to secure anything for your son.
    Very well written. This is a decision which may heavily affect the course of the life the child.

    I read that the Central NPC is unwilling to allow a special interpretation of the 'settled abroad' in article 5 of the Chinese nationality law to overseas-born children of Hong Kong and Macau permanent residents because it may hinder reunification with the mainland after 2047. The articles stated that it is in the best interests of the Central government if Hong Kong and Macau are eventually populated with a majority of mainland Chinese. Having a large population of western born and educated Chinese in HK may make the reunification process more tedious and article 5 was especially designed to prevent this. I believe this is only speculation but then again I do not see China easing up on its prohibition of dual nationality in the near future.
    Last edited by teslarat; 15-09-2014 at 03:17 PM.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    I read that the Central NPC is unwilling to allow a special interpretation of the 'settled abroad' in article 5 of the Chinese nationality law to overseas-born children of Hong Kong and Macau permanent residents because it may hinder reunification with the mainland after 2047. The articles stated that it is in the best interests of the Central government if Hong Kong and Macau are eventually populated with a majority of mainland Chinese. Having a large population of western born and educated Chinese in HK may make the reunification process more tedious
    Interesting. I hadn't read that before, but it does make a kind of sense. Do you still have those articles?

    I don't have numbers, but I would have thought that the number of HK-born but Western educated Chinese living in HK today would be relatively high.

    There are also significant numbers of mainland Chinese (w/ no connection to HK) who study abroad in Western Universities and return to mainland China.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    I believe this is only speculation but then again I do not see China easing up on its prohibition of dual nationality in the near future.
    Well, that's probably true for mainland China. But because of the very different policies in effect in mainland China today, Article 5 of the Nationality Law of the PRC causes problems which are unique to HK (and I think Macau too).

    The issue is unique to HK/MSAR and there is precedent for having the prohibition loosened in the past uniquely for those territories in response to problems that were unique to those territories only.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    and article 5 was especially designed to prevent this.
    Maybe. The first meeting between the UK and the PRC was March 1979, the Nationality Law came out in 1980.

    This is going to be a problem anyways, since the 'settled abroad' rule doesn't apply to those from Taiwan with Taiwanese ID and passports. Why cripple the model?

  5. #25

    You are right, there are already a lot of overseas born Hong Kong residents of Chinese descent, but I think that preventing the further acquisition of Chinese nationality and/or automatic access to a HKID for those born in a western country would limit their influence on the territory. Come 2047, the current generation of western born Hong Kongers would be nearing the end of their lives. It is somewhat true in the sense that if one is born in a foreign country today to Hong Kong parents, it is near impossible to have any claim to residency in HK. This is not the case for those born on the mainland.

    I unfortunately cannot find the articles; and I think I might also have heard some of this over RTHK a couple of years back.

    I hope we are on the same wavelength but the not 'settled abroad' requirement also extends to ROC citizens. I was born overseas and my HK mother had already settled in the country but my ROC ID and passport wielding father had not. When I applied through VEPIC earlier this year the immigration department was adamant that I show them proof that he was still on a conditional visa before they could continue with my application.

    Last edited by teslarat; 15-09-2014 at 08:15 PM.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    You are right, there are already a lot of overseas born Hong Kong residents of Chinese descent, but I think that preventing the further acquisition of Chinese nationality and/or automatic access to a HKID for those born in a western country would limit their influence on the territory. Come 2047, the current generation of western born Hong Kongers would be nearing the end of their lives.
    Ah, yes, this makes a lot of sense then. At the moment of reunification, for everyone who was Chinese and had properly registered (i.e. held HKPICs) the policy is lax and forgiving, but then it gets tightened up.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    I hope we are on the same wavelength but the not 'settled abroad' requirement also extends to ROC citizens.
    What I meant was that the mainland authorities who issue Taibaozheng (a document which explicitly states the nationality of the holder to be the nationality of the PRC) do not require a person to prove that their parents were not settled abroad at birth. There are plenty of overseas born Taiwanese - born to parents who held green cards or had even become US citizens - who hold Taiwanese passports, Taiwan ID cards, and Taibaozheng.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    I was born overseas and my HK mother had already settled in the country but my ROC ID and passport wielding father had not. When I applied through VEPIC earlier this year the immigration department was adamant that I show them proof that he was still on a conditional visa before they could continue with my application.
    What needs to be realized is that HK and the mainland have different definitions of 'settled abroad' and the HK version is much stricter.

    On the mainland, a few years ago 'settled abroad' was recently defined as holding permanent residence status in a foreign country for at least two years, with at least 180 days cumulative physical presence in that country. So my understanding is that a woman from mainland China who gets married, moves to the US on a conditional green card, and gives birth a week after arrival is not considered settled abroad by the mainland definition, but is considered to be settled abroad by the HK definition.

  7. #27

    You are correct, they can implement PRC nationality law and deny the TBZ to foreign born ROC citizens whose parents have settled abroad and have them use their overseas passports to enter China. I guess there is less alienation if they just treat all ROC passport holders as Chinese citizens if eventual reunification is what they want. The Communist Party can't get all choosey now can it?

    I had no idea that 'settled abroad' in the SARs had a different definition on the mainland. That is very unfair... in that case then I agree that Hong Kong should definitely request to observe the more relaxed rule since it's the same nationality law they're adhering to. Absurd.


  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    You are correct, they can implement PRC nationality law and deny the TBZ to foreign born ROC citizens whose parents have settled abroad and have them use their overseas passports to enter China. I guess there is less alienation if they just treat all ROC passport holders as Chinese citizens if eventual reunification is what they want. The Communist Party can't get all choosey now can it?
    Hmm, but on the other hand, if a person has only a Taiwan passport but no Taiwan household registration and no Taiwan ID card (that is the person has no right to settle and live in Taiwan), then the person is only recognized as a PRC national by the PRC if the person has no foreign nationality. (And to travel to mainland China, that person then has to get a China Travel Document issued by a PRC embassy.)

    Dual nationals with Taiwan passports but without Taiwan household registration are recognized only as overseas chinese by the PRC (or more accurately, ethnic chinese with foreign nationalities only). On the other hand, Taiwanese with household registration get Taibaozheng and are fully recognized by the PRC as PRC nationals, despite holding dual nationality and having parents settled abroad at their birth.

    There's probably more going on here than I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslarat:
    I had no idea that 'settled abroad' in the SARs had a different definition on the mainland. That is very unfair... in that case then I agree that Hong Kong should definitely request to observe the more relaxed rule since it's the same nationality law they're adhering to. Absurd.
    Well, part of the reason is that until recently, mainland China didn't have a clear definition of what settled abroad means. So when the law was first applied to HK, it didn't really have a clear definition....

    Also, HK uses the common law court system, and IIUC the courts in HK have decided to interpret the meaning of 'settled' in the Nationality Law of the PRC in the same way as English courts define it when talking about being settled in the UK.

    It's all very, very complicated and hard to grasp (at least for me). Hairball could probably explain this a lot better.
    teslarat likes this.

  9. #29

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    Thanks you both for the above detailed information. I amsending my little brother to the immigration department once he get a day offto make an inquiry about my situation. Probably you guys are correct, we may end up not go thru the application. Thanks again!

  10. #30

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    Interesting discussion by IceEagle, I also agree they should allow dual nationality, but this isn't really the flavour of the day for China, probably it's going to lead to too much foreign influence on the country and the SARs so I could see this as being one reason the law was written as such.

    If HK is important for you, there are definitely ways to make it work, however they just don't want you to have it both ways.