Hi All~ Negotiating transfer and I have some questions (if you don't mind)

[Mat]

CAP, you should look at places closer than Tai Wai first.

Check out Manathan Hill in Mei Foo (very new, great views and next to the MTR/taxi/Buses and 10 mn minibus/taxi up some fantastic country parks)

Check out Bayan Tree, Pacifica...in Lai Chi Kok

Check out Olympic area

Check out the hunghom area (Laguna Verde, Royal Peninsula...)

only if you can't find in those very convenient places then look further such as Tai Wai.

Re buses/MTR debate.

There is a lot of fight between Movingin07 and DeletedUser on those boards between buses/MTR.

I have used both, both are very reliable by European standards, clean, efficient.

Buses are overall more comfortable (you can seat and not be pushed around) but less frequent obviously and more prompt to delay (obvioulsy also).

MTR at rush hour (especially on the way (Tai Wai -> TST) will be very packed (somethingDeletedUser does not experience since he leaves one MTR station away from his office and is in the office very early) but are on the dot, clean and a pleasure to ride by London/paris/NYC standards.

All in all check this website to get an idea on prices/size for the areas I mentionned above:
Centadata.com - Search Result

That will give you an idea of how much $ it will cost you

[zergmei]

I don't think there's anywhere you can get 800sqft (Gross)/ 600sqft (Net) for HKD15,000, better not to even dream about getting 1000sqft (Gross)/ 800sqft (Net), aside from New Territories.

Most of Kowloon has similar rates:
600 sqft gross (~450sqft net) is about HKD15,000 - HKD22,000

Cap will have to be realistic. Even Festival City at Taiwai will cost $18-20k for 1000sqft gross. so $15k will be just a little short for 800sqft gross


http://hk.centadata.com/eptest.aspx?...W&info=&page=0

CAP, you should look at places closer than Tai Wai first.

Check out Manathan Hill in Mei Foo (very new, great views and next to the MTR/taxi/Buses and 10 mn minibus/taxi up some fantastic country parks)

Check out Bayan Tree, Pacifica...in Lai Chi Kok

Check out Olympic area

Check out the hunghom area (Laguna Verde, Royal Peninsula...)

only if you can't find in those very convenient places then look further such as Tai Wai.

Re buses/MTR debate.

There is a lot of fight between Movingin07 and DeletedUser on those boards between buses/MTR.

I have used both, both are very reliable by European standards, clean, efficient.

Buses are overall more comfortable (you can seat and not be pushed around) but less frequent obviously and more prompt to delay (obvioulsy also).

MTR at rush hour (especially on the way (Tai Wai -> TST) will be very packed (somethingDeletedUser does not experience since he leaves one MTR station away from his office and is in the office very early) but are on the dot, clean and a pleasure to ride by London/paris/NYC standards.

All in all check this website to get an idea on prices/size for the areas I mentionned above:
Centadata.com - Search Result

That will give you an idea of how much $ it will cost you

[Mat]

No.

CAP will be able to negotiate a higher housing allowance (or salary) to move it to 20 K or something.

Hence the link I povided.

I'd rather negotiate a higher housing allowance than settling in directly for a place in the NT.

[zergmei]

wouldn't we all like more money

[Mat]

If CAP fails in his negotiation then it will be time to consider whether moving to HK is worth it and whether Tai Wai or wherever in the NT is something he would be fine with.

But I venture a guess that the OP will more likely reduce the size of his flat than extend the trip to and from home. A choice made by many foreigners coming to HK.

[CAP]

Thanks, all.

Some food for thought it seems.

Re: commute time, in Wimbledon I'm 40minutes roughly door to door. Tokyo I was also 40 minutes, just about. So I think that is about the limit I'd want. Taiwan was an exception - I lived in Taipei but the company's headquarters was in Taoyuan - spent 1 1/2 hours each way going back and forth - absolutely dreadful! Truthfully, I'm not mad at staying in the NT, so long as the commute doesn't stretch beyond 45 minutes. I like a crowd, but not overcrowded (if that makes sense). NT could be a good option to get out of the inner city. I've never taken a bus in HK, so can't comment - through past experience, they usually tended to be slower though. And either way, I still prefer to have MTR access in case I wanted to go other places that the bus wasn't so convenient for.

Similarly, I'm not sure how much less I'd be able to go in terms of sqft'age. This, honestly, would depend on the cut of the flat (I've seen spacious places that were cut awfully and space was wasted and not really usable, similarly have seen slightly smaller houses that were cut better and more comfortable). That said, I think when you start trying to squeeze a 2br into 500ft, things get a bit complicated me thinks.

Re: %'s of salary on rent/mtg, it's worth noting that this should be a maximum, not the average. The lower the better. Being over extended doesn't help anybody and should not be the norm - if it is the norm, you have long-term trouble brewing (think Asian crisis 97, US a decade later). Taking into account we have other properties we own outside of HK, I really don't want to go much beyond 15k (you can call me greedy or cheap even, and I'm fine with that . I could probably again swing a little bit (maybe 20k), but I think that would definitely be the cap.

About the discussion, it's picking up a bit, for the most part. They came in low with the base, but we are considering a staged incremental increase. They'll also pay for short term accommodation whilst I search for a flat (timing and length of time still TBD, though). A good portion of the pay is backloaded via bonuses (though, I tend not to plan based off of bonus). They won't budget on housing allowance, though. I'm actually trying to convince them that we should provide this to all our employees to help give them a tax break and help our year end balance sheet, but they are hesitant as I think they are concerned about the amount of time that would be needed in man hours to accommodate everybody (it's a small team of about 30 people, but I suppose if audited it could take a considerable amount of time).

@Mat: why do you feel NT is settling? Again, I'm not terribly familiar w/the NT, but keen to know why you say this. Thanks for the list, btw. Hong Hom was mentioned by another person I know, as was Tseung Kwan O).

[CAP]

@Zerg: the centadata site, I don't see rental values, only sales values (which doesn't always have a direct 1:1 with rental rates).

[MovingIn07]

CAP - A few comments.

re rental percentages - personally I agree with you. But I think you'll find it IS more of an average than a max ..... We did a poll on Geo about this - let me see if I can find a link.....There you go, that gives you an idea: How much (%) of your household income do you spend for your housing rental? - View Poll Results

re buses vs MTR - it doesn't matter what I say on this, DeletedUser will say it's wrong. But, personally, I came from an environment where both myself and my husband owned cars and had never previously relied much on public transport (short exception regarding trams when I lived in Melbourne). We moved to the Gold Coast (lovely place, would fit your requirements nicely except it's probably outside your commute time and perhaps a little too quiet) where there is no MTR at all. We said to ourselves "let's give it a week and see if we need a car". That was 5 years ago. I can get from Gold Coast to anywhere else in HK with one change of bus. Some places it is faster to go by bus than by MTR. An example - Sheung Wan to Kwai Fong - a 930 would take about 15 minutes; the MTR would take 30 minutes. Tuen Mun to Shueng Shui - bus takes 20 minutes and the MTR would take over an hour.....There are plenty of examples where the MTR is faster too, it all depends. There are many different kinds of bus in Hong Kong. There are large double-deckers that go slowly around places and stop at every stop. There are double-deckers that go around a small area (say, Central) then get on the freeway and dash about 20km without stopping and then go around a small area at the other end (Tsuen Wan, Tuen Mun, other NT towns etc etc). There are minibuses that hold 16 people that operate on short (and long) routes, dashing around very quickly and covering the same ground as cabs. Most buses operate very frequently - green minibuses are often as frequent as every 3-5 minutes; many double deckers every 10 minutes. "infrequent routes" only found in out-lying villages in the NT ... every 30 mins. There are also a huge number of resident shuttles, run by larger estates, that take residents to the local MTR station or key places like Central. These are very fast, very comfortable, usually run on a known schedule (no waiting time) and are thus a great boon and worth looking out for if you look at the larger estates. Just ask about the resident shuttles.

Anyway - my point was to give you a flavour if you have never used them of what we mean. This is NOT a suggestion to ignore places on the MTR (despite what my nemesis DeletedUser might claim). All I am saying is that there is LOT of HK that is not on top of an MTR station and if you ignore all those places, you may find you cut out areas that are "just what you are looking for". That's all.

Your plan to come and stay in a serviced appt before you decide is exactly the right decision. HK needs to be viewed in person, and as you say, some places are much better laid out than others. (Unfortunately you are going to find a LOT of badly laid out places - the emphasis is on "more" rooms rather than "decent sized" rooms here.... I hated everything I saw and ended up buying a boat, but that's another story entirely!).

re tax credits on rent - your company does not need to pay for your housing to get this. If you spend more than 10% of your salary on housing, and your company agrees to do the (rather small) amount of admin necessary, then you can get this. We do this for all our staff, even the receptionist, because it's trivial. Your company should know this.

Anyway good luck in your negotiations and let us know how it all turns out.

[Mat]

@Mat: why do you feel NT is settling? Again, I'm not terribly familiar w/the NT, but keen to know why you say this. Thanks for the list, btw. Hong Hom was mentioned by another person I know, as was Tseung Kwan O).

It wasn't meant negatively. I live in the NT (and used to live in Kowloon, Hunghom actually -lots of Japanese that works in TST living there btw) and like it.

My post was more meant to show you what's on offer in the various areas of Kowloon first and see if you find this fits ur budget/size requirement or if you can use it as a way to negotiate your package then great.

if you can't find anything in those areas that somehow fits ur criteria and/or you can't get a higher package then look at the NT if you are still keen on HK.

My point in short was that it seems to me that ur main criteria is convenience/commute and I therefore feel that NT would be option 2, while some people immediately dismissed Kowloon.

[CAP]

Most of the time, I've not been a huge fan of busses. Not sure why, really, but just always preferred the train. That said, I understand that sometimes they are better. In Taipei, for example, I was <5minutes walk to the MRT. However, if I wanted to go across town to the west and south to an area called Shi'Da (which has great South Asian food, a nice night market, and pubs), then a bus was the quicker option by 50% (at least until they finish the new MRT lines). Still, I always had the MRT to get everywhere else. Having both is good.

@Mat: Thanks. Actually, a Nice area is actually heavily weighted. Convenience (food/general goods/market), neighbourhood w/an ounce of class (green, leafy, or by the water), and commute time. Probably in that order. 40/40/20 I'd say.

On a related tangent - I cat say all, but, in general, the quality of housing for Chinese seems pretty poor for the level of economic development in the major cities. TPE was pretty poor, Shanghai/BJ pretty bad, and I'm learning quickly that in HK it seems to be the case, as well. Only the newest of new tends to be up to par for where their economies or at (but then they tend to be very cookie cutter). The exception with the older stock seems to be that which was built by foreigners (western/Japanese).

Btw, whilst not 100% there yet, I'm gradually leaning towards the offer. I'm taking a hit in gross pay, but we got the net to be fairly even to my UK level (except for the first year where I have to budget for double tax, which is a bit of a blow - 30% yr sucks, quite frankly). There is quite a bit of movement in the bonus, which is where my net increase will come from (so long as performance goes as well as it has here in the UK, that is). With a new title, similar net pay, and a better bonus structure, it seems like a decent step, all in all (so long as housing gets figured out). I'm still going to push a bit, though, to get the base just a bit higher and also try to get them to due reconsider the housing benefit (to all employees). Will keep you updated, though, for sure.

PS: similar to the tax thing, do anybody know if there is a way to get payments off shored as I'm a foreigner (so long as the money doesn't reenter the country)?

Again, thanks for all the info so far.