July Move: Typical Settlement Questions.

[Terreneuve]

We'll be moving to HK in July and we're planning to find a place in the NT between Taipo and Ma On Shan, hopefully in a village house not too far from the MTR with a budget of around $15k. I've been scouring these forums and the 3 main real estate sites with English listings (28hse/sqft/gohome) and found comments here suggesting that these listings are not updated to be true. There seems to be very little choice based on what's shown on these sites, quite paltry for a city of over 7 million. Is there really so little available or are folks just old school?

So I have a few questions related to landing, finding, moving into, and furnishing an apartment and the logistics:

• Are there more real-estate sites (I know there are but I only found luxury ones) that have more up-to-date listings? Possibly only in Chinese? Are there any sites that only owners use (a-la craigslist/kijiji)? What about on the ground? If you can read Chinese, can you take a stroll in a neighbourhood and see “Apt for rent” signs posted about?

• If dealing with an owner directly, what do I need to know? What checks, details, or questions need to be asked? I’ve read that places can be negotiated sometimes? How or what can be negotiated; Deposit? Rent? Furnishings?

• How does the deposit work? Is it usually 2 or 3 months down? Does that mean after 10 months if we decide to move, simply don’t pay the last 2 months?

• If dealing with an agent what can I expect? What are their fees? How can I find a good agent for that part of NT? What is and isn’t usually included in their service? If we find a good place how fast do we need to act?

• Where can I find temporary accommodations that will accept a small cat? Is 2 weeks long enough to find a place, move in, and furnish it?

• There’re lots of 2nd hand furnishings listed on here but how costly/practical is it to hire a couple guys and a truck for the day and collect a bunch of stuff? Are there 2nd hand furniture stores near Taipo/Ma On Shan?

• If buying new stuff, what’s a minimal budget for getting your place up and running with all the basics?

• On a separate note, is it better to set up a bank account here, with say HSBC or Citi before arriving?

• Lastly, does anyone know of a reliable shipping co. that operates out of Montreal?

Pretty stressed about this huge move and everything falling into place before starting my job in August, so many thanks for any help or advice!

[MandM!]

Wow that's a handful.

1) property online is bait and switch. Anyway an agent can show you what's available
2) raise your budget a little. 15k not gonna be that great.
3) wouldn't do owner direct. Usually owner price it high at first then use an agent who drills down the price. Use an agent. 1/2 month fee.
4) mention the cat and might have issues. Easy enough to hide.
5) 2 months deposit. 2 year lease but you can cancel the lease after 1 year is finished. So bring 3.5 months cash up front.
6) yes expat forums have used furnitures. But sizing is big issue here with small flats. Easy to hire a van to move furnitures for you. Also have an IKEA here.
7) yes set up bank account before you come. Biggest headache ever to do so here.

Housing is scarse in supply. It goes quickly. Find near mtr and check everything. You have little rights as a tenant so make sure everything works. You don't want to be on here 3 months from now asking how to break a lease (the answer is you cannot but you can forfeit your deposit usually to break the lease so 2 months rent penalty)

welcome to Hong Kong!

[tf19]

Wow that's a handful.

7) yes set up bank account before you come. Biggest headache ever to do so here.

welcome to Hong Kong!

Assuming payment is in local currency, it would be better to setup both a Citi account in your home country as Citi in HK. The intra-Citi transfer process is way less painful than HSBC's although it's not possible to directly link your accounts with either bank.

The customer onboarding process for Citi is also way more pleasant than HSBC. I first tried with HSBC and walked across the street to Citi when they told me it would take up to a month to open a simple deposit account. I had an account open with Citi about 3 days after walking into the branch.

[locust.fund]

Wow that's a handful.

1) property online is bait and switch. Anyway an agent can show you what's available
2) raise your budget a little. 15k not gonna be that great.
3) wouldn't do owner direct. Usually owner price it high at first then use an agent who drills down the price. Use an agent. 1/2 month fee.
4) mention the cat and might have issues. Easy enough to hide.
5) 2 months deposit. 2 year lease but you can cancel the lease after 1 year is finished. So bring 3.5 months cash up front.
6) yes expat forums have used furnitures. But sizing is big issue here with small flats. Easy to hire a van to move furnitures for you. Also have an IKEA here.
7) yes set up bank account before you come. Biggest headache ever to do so here.

Housing is scarse in supply. It goes quickly. Find near mtr and check everything. You have little rights as a tenant so make sure everything works. You don't want to be on here 3 months from now asking how to break a lease (the answer is you cannot but you can forfeit your deposit usually to break the lease so 2 months rent penalty)

welcome to Hong Kong!

I was a realtor about a decade ago. Detest the profession.

1) ALL the (local) online real estate sites are junk and scams. The offerings listed there NEVER exist. The same applies to many advertisements hung on store front windows. The sole purpose of those entries is to lure you in to check further with them. If you ask about those sweet deals the realtors will simply reply that they didn't have time to update and now they are ALL gone. It's against the local regulations but they do that anyway.

Housing in HK is primarily high-rise, and there is little to none "apartment for rent" signs anywhere. The ONLY hope for you, really, is to walk into a realtor store (wolf's den) and check what is available. Sorry.

2) There is literally no hope for you to be able to talk to an apartment owner without a real estate agent's service here. Forget about this route.

3) If it's a locally prevalent "2 years total, with 1 years fixed" lease, a 2-months deposit is the norm. The landlord can sue you at The Lands Tribunal in your proposed scenario. The deposit is a security deposit, for the landlord, in case you damage his property during your tenancy.

4) An agent (if he could find you a place) will cost you 1/2 of a month's rent, otherwise you don't have to pay him at all no matter how diligently he has worked on your behalf. You should find someone who can communicate with you in basic English (most of them can, just don't expect too much). I can only tell you that really GOOD agents don't bother to do rentals.

You need to act immediately (i.e. within a day) if you have viewed and liked a place, and instruct your agent to commence the negotiation with its landlord.

5) Yeah, hide the cat. Don't EVER mention it to anyone unless you want to give yourself extra trouble. Whether 2 weeks is gonna be long enough... It depends.

6) Don't bother to find second hand furniture. If you are presently not here, it is impractical. There is an IKEA in Shatin, not far from where you are gonna be living.

7) Total cost for your furniture... depends.

8) If I were you, I will set up bank accounts at both banks. Why not? You will find teller machine for one bank here or there, but usually not both.

9) No I don't know any shipping company in Montreal.

[Terreneuve]

Thanks so much for your replies! I'm excited about living and working in HK but moving and settling in has me totally stressed out and the more I research on renting the more warranted the stress appears.

So real estate is just a horrible gauntlet and I'll be lucky to get anything decent?...OK then. Kind of disappointed in my employer's settlement assistance in that case, but I guess it's not the norm to receive help with such things? My employer will be advancing my salary to help cover the costs so maybe they can at least help with issuing a bank draft or something?

CAT: Don't ask, don't tell (this was my initial thought)

Regarding banks I see that HSBC has way more locations out in the NT, wouldn't want to travel too far just to take care of simple things. Also wouldn't want to open multiple accounts as none are free, must make appointments for the privilege, and I loathe giving $ to the banks regardless of how little. Not sure I understand "onboarding"? Why is it such a pain to open an account there? I've done it in much less westernized countries in Asia and just walked in (no app.) with my ID and boom, debit card, bank book etc within 20mins.

[RedBull76]

HSBC: when i relocated to Hong Kong last Aug'16 it took me 9 visits to the branch and 14 follow up calls just to open an account and credit card

used furniture: there are plenty online and in this forum geoexpat.
I was given a free solid wood writing desk from Geoexpat. There are many generous members in this forum.
do not need to hire a truck. Just call GoGo van.

[MandM!]

Do you want expensive real furniture or the cheap stuff. I often go on the expat forums and search for tequila kola. They have nice stuff. And you can find $20-30k pieces for $2-3k. Of course you can go to Ikea but I find them severely overpriced plus I like finding good furniture. You might not have the time. Keep in mind that Ikea often needs weeks to deliver so that will be your initial delay.

Stop researching online. It's stupid. What's on there today is gone this evening. Plus it's giving you a headache. Many places in Shatin area. Just ask for new building and increase your budget to 20k and go from there. Unless you like leaking windows broken air con mold cockroach etc :-p. Keep in mind hk has all faucets of living. The best to the worst.

[Elegiaque]

Where on earth is this advice coming from?!

I think you need to be in Hong Kong to start the apartment search and, yes, that will be stressful but I wouldn't recommend committing to any places before you've seen it in person. Most places are not occupied when you see them, so a fast move-in is possible and it helps you negotiate down on the rent. You'd be a desirable tenant if you said you would like to move in next week ($$$).

Yes, the websites are terrible and don't follow them (only as a little reference to get an idea). I actually highly recommend keeping an eye on the classified sections of this website and the other expat website for property because in my experience I have found dealing with landlords directly is more reasonable than agents -- they are not experienced at inflating the price like agents are, and you may luck out and find another reasonable person who is also trying to save paying 1/2 the agent fee themselves and happy to deal directly with a tenant. Of course this is really down to luck, but I have experienced it. It can also give you a little idea of what's available and more genuine pictures.

If you're looking for a whole village house, as a Westerner, I think you would have to budget $25-30k, but if you're all right with one floor of a house (like say 2/F + rooftop) then $15k should be ok.

Why not be honest about the cat? We haven't had problems with having cats and that way it's more straight forward. We have had to make it clear to landlords that the cats only damage our property and are really incapable of damaging anything inside the flat. Actually, I take it back, we didn't have cats and then got one, didn't initially tell our landlord, and then had some difficulties negotiating this with our landlord who wanted a non-refundable $2,000 cleaning fee and an additional $10,000 in deposit. In the end he took the $2,000 but we negotiated out of the extra deposit (because, come on, what damage is a cat going to cause beyond a $44,000 deposit?!), and he also returned our full deposit. So in the end, it was OK. What we found a bit disturbing in this case, is that we got the cats and had them without telling the landlord yet, and somehow he found out. We really didn't like that somehow someone knew what was in our apartment and told him. *shudder* I think it's perhaps best to be honest and friendly about this, or else the landlord can use it as an excuse later on to take all of your deposit. New place, no problems and in fact we got some nice screens for our flat ("to help protect the cats"). We have a relatively safe rooftop for our cats to go on and they really enjoy it.

Paying the initial agent fee and deposits and first month's rent is a real financial killer, especially before you start receiving your HK salary. Hope you'll be ok in this regard!

It's actually very easy to buy a lot of good second hand furniture and everything else you'll need from the classifieds. When people move out of the country you can buy a lot of things in one go. You can use an app called GoGoVan or EasyVan to arrange an English speaking van driver who is in the area. The costs depends on the distance and if you need help with carrying or request at peak times, and you'll know the price when you book. The cost is not much more than a taxi (maybe 20-30% more the cost of a tax?), and it's actually one of the few HK startups that gets things right! You pay the driver in cash.

[Char Siu King]

15k? Not happening.

[locust.fund]

Why is it such a pain to open an account there? I've done it in much less westernized countries in Asia and just walked in (no app.) with my ID and boom, debit card, bank book etc within 20mins.

Local banks give their new customers exceptional hindrance, to persuade you away from opening an account with them. It is not like they can make any big money through retail anyway.

Then of course, the official explanation is that they are doing all measures to prevent terrorists' money from getting laundered.