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Colonial legacy brainwashed Hong Kong's students to denounce Beijing?

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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    ...Rubbish. Just that there was more censorship previously and the the press generally were docile and subservient to the Bristish. My uncle was a journalist in the 50's - 70's and he tells me that there were always regular visits from Government officials. Generally journalists were asked in a polite way to toe the line or careers would be finished...
    Assuming for a moment that what you are saying is right, then it got worse on the 1st of July, 1997 when the commies moved in. Now that we are meant to be autonomous, press freedoms are instead shrinking. Again, don't take my word for it. Gatts posted a link to an article in The Standard stating that 86% of over 650 journalists and photographers believe the situation has worsened since 2005. Read here.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    ...Yes, there is more press freedoms here than on the mainland. I don't disagree with this and this is something that should be opened up... but responsibility is also key...
    Could you elaborate on what you mean by this "...but responsibility is also key..."?

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    ...I don't care what a top judge says. They are not always right. You can choose to believe him if his opnions fit your agenda. Would you argue with opnions from a judge at the High Court in UK or with the Supreme court in the US? Of course you would based on your political persuations...
    You know a top judge is saying and doing something right when he is being replaced due to having reached retirement age (not mandatory, but he was simply not asked to stay on), but his replacement is an older judge. Clearly because he has demonstrated liberal leanings, and because he has written many dissenting opinions, the establishment is uncomfortable and would rather see him go. So much for judicial independence.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    ...Nonsense. There are more demonstrations here than ever before. This is due to the fact that taking to the streets now is more freely accepted and more politically orchestrated. Secondly, taking to the streets would make a difference. Try changing the Government's view during colonial times through street protests!
    Would you prefer to have HK cops policing or British or US cops? HK cops are pussies compared to how other countries handle peaceful demonstrations...
    Yes there are more demonstrations here than ever before, because people are increasingly dissatisfied with each administration. Perhaps you missed the reports by organisers each year saying how much more difficult the police makes it to organise these marches. More so now than before - the colonial gummint was more compassionate.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    ...The Government is out of touch. It is still a learning curve especailly when most of the ministers come from a civil service background and taught simply to follow. It would take some time but beating them with a big stick each time will not resolve anything.
    No, history has shown that it takes a real jolt to head to get these brain-damaged people to sit up and listen to what the public has to say. People protest and voice their opinions, but they don't listen. When they don't listen, protesters resort to extreme measures - some will fly colonial flags, some (threaten to) jump off bridges, others resort to violence, followed by lectures from the gummint jesters about the virtues of expressing their opinions in a 'peaceful, rational manner.'

    Face it, they're not interested in political reform. They're interested in what Beijing wants, i.e., put off direct elections as long as possible and when it finally comes, make it a complete farce all the while pretending that they have the interests of Hong Kongers at heart.
    Gatts and closedcasket like this.

  2. #112

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    Press freedoms comes with responsibilities. Compared with the rest of the word the "press" is more of a ragtag of paparazzi or anyone holding a camera.

    Hong Kong's definitions of press freedom amounts to stalking, taking pictures of upskirts, salicious reporting and to sensationalise. Is this what we want as responsible journalism?

    I am talking more about reporters from Apple Daily who seems to want to make the news and cryting each time they have merely been asked to move by police at a demo.

    Every thing a Government official says is totally taken out of context and amplified 1000 times. Yes, the press should be allowed to do their work unhindered but as with democracy and freedoms there are limitations.

    I do wish that HK has far more professional journalists and reporters such as say Jeremy Paxman, Katie Couric...etc

    Again from your points... there are more demonstrations and yes people are disatissfied but I bet you half of the people protesting are just following their political parties who are more streetwise than before. Political parties simply did not exist until the final yesrs of Bristish rule and that is why there were fewer protests. People just didn't know how to get mobilised.
    Of course the organisers will say it is more difficult to organise marches, what else do you expect? The fact is that they carry out these marches on a regular basis dispels this.
    With the top judge.... isn't this common even in the US and UK? Judges are infallible are they not?
    So you are saying riots in London last year was justified as they had a grievance?


  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Press freedoms comes with responsibilities. Compared with the rest of the word the "press" is more of a ragtag of paparazzi or anyone holding a camera.

    Hong Kong's definitions of press freedom amounts to stalking, taking pictures of upskirts, salicious reporting and to sensationalise. Is this what we want as responsible journalism?

    I am talking more about reporters from Apple Daily who seems to want to make the news and cryting each time they have merely been asked to move by police at a demo.

    Every thing a Government official says is totally taken out of context and amplified 1000 times. Yes, the press should be allowed to do their work unhindered but as with democracy and freedoms there are limitations.

    I do wish that HK has far more professional journalists and reporters such as say Jeremy Paxman, Katie Couric...etc
    I agree that there is a lack of real investigative journalism in Hong Kong. However, it's easy to present borderline indefensible behaviour by certain elements of the press if you pick out the worst examples. However, the dislike of tabloids and paparazzi isn't sufficient cause to limit press freedom, and I think that it's quite telling that you tar everyone in the media with the same brush.

    The SCMP is an example of top quality journalism being allowed to die out, as journalists critical of the CCP were given the boot or forced out through other means such as heavily edited their stories, causing enough frustration for them to leave on their own (mission accomplished) or forcing them to retire on reaching retirement age. Where do you expect this to go when you have arseclowns of the likes of Wang Xiangwei at the helm? This isn't to say that it all started with him, but I think his appointment is likely to be the final nail in the coffin for the SCMP. This is why we don't have your Paxmans and your Courics.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Again from your points... there are more demonstrations and yes people are disatissfied but I bet you half of the people protesting are just following their political parties who are more streetwise than before. Political parties simply did not exist until the final yesrs of Bristish rule and that is why there were fewer protests. People just didn't know how to get mobilised.
    This isn't true, I had a clear view, unobstructed view of the gummint house on Upper Albert Road where I used to live when I grew up and there were always demonstrators up there petitioning the governors, and not just on weekends. Same was true for the Central gumming offices. You might recall that Hong Kong's governors were widely liked, and that they were mostly unpopular only among the pro-Beijing political circles (pro-communist), especially when more LegCo seats were opened up for elections (pro-democracy) and they got trounced by the dems.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Of course the organisers will say it is more difficult to organise marches, what else do you expect? The fact is that they carry out these marches on a regular basis dispels this.
    Yes, they are able to carry out these marches because freedom of demonstration is protected under Article 27 of the Basic Law. But marches these days don't happen without reports of abuse of power by the police - moving protest zones several hundreds of metres from the venue (effectively rendering such protests pointless), removing journalists, man-handling peaceful protesters, and so on. Just to be clear, I think violence in protests should not be tolerated, it ruins the day for everyone else and runs the risk of tarring everyone with the same brush. The police do deal with this, but that is not what I am talking about in referring to protesters being carried off.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    With the top judge.... isn't this common even in the US and UK?
    So what? So what if it is common in the US and the UK? Listen to what the man's saying. Hong Kong's greatest asset, i.e., rule of law, is at risk. Gummint interference in the judiciary is rearing its head.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Judges are infallible are they not?
    Not sure what the point of this question is.

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    So you are saying riots in London last year was justified as they had a grievance?
    No, why would you say that?
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  4. #114

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    Dread, ok I accept what you are saying and your last post does make sense! So I am not going to further argue. What irks me are those people who have the audacity to say that they are not Chinese whilst waving the colonial flag as we saw on City forum on Sunday. This really riles the Chinese people.
    It's like a new Yorker screaming that they are not American and waving the flag of Al Quieda.

    They have every right to criticize the Communist Party but waving the flag of a colonial oppressor just appears ridiculous!


  5. #115

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    It is nuts to wave the British flag. Not sure if those folks are old enough to remember the corrupt Hong Kong. When HKers arrived in Canada predominantly living in "Chinatowns" like in Vancouver these people were less afraid of hoodlums and criminals than they were of the police. I was there in the police department when restaurant owners victimized by a local Chinese soccer club gang would not report extortion or threats or these guys eating without paying.

    As shown on Wiki HK was corrupt for some 100 years plus:

    Anti-corruption campaigns

    In the 1970s, corruption was a way of life in Hong Kong, being the norm in all government departments. Policemen would often extract bribes (popularly called "tea fee") before they investigated a crime, as did firemen before they rescued people and put out fires. Many Chinese detective superintendents amassed incredible wealth from their corrupt dealings with triads and corporations. Their names have been seared into the memories of the older generations, their stories adapted into several popular movies such as To be Number One (跛豪) in 1991. That is not to say British officers were entirely clean in their dealings.

    In 1974, Hong Kong Governor Lord MacLehose of Beoch, realising the seriousness of the problem, founded the Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC). The investigations and arrests of many police officers created a furore among the police, who protested against the ICAC and even tried to overrun the headquarters in one protest.

    The governor, who was afraid of a police strike or even a rebellion, at last issued a pardon, preventing arrests in cases committed before 1977. However, the pardon was not extended to higher-level detective superintendents. Those high-level Chinese officers, famous for their riches, left for exile to Taiwan with no extradition treaties with Hong Kong. The efforts of the ICAC in time changed the habits of an entire population and turned Hong Kong into one of the least corrupt cities in the world.

  6. #116

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    It's all too easy to forget HK before the 1970s. The British practice of indentured servitude was rampant. Corruption was rampant. Chinese could not go to beaches or own property in some areas of their own city.
    There were racially segregated laws. Hell, Chinese language was even banned as an official language and everyone had to use English. There wasn't a level playing field in business and top posts went to British expats.
    The social programs such as public housing and healthcare was the result of demands from the Chinese themselves and the riots of 1967... not from any initiatives by the British.
    Ironically the cultural revolution and the riots also made HK what it is today if we wish to be pedantic. In this case do we thank Mao?

    Most of these people waving the colonial flag and think that the British gave us all this... think again, it was your parents and grandparents who in some cases were abused and died for this.

    I don't expect anyone born after the 80s or expats on this forum to understand fully what colonism meant to Chinese parents and grandparents of the older generations. That is why bringing out the colonial flag is so insulting to the Chinese.

    There is a Ancesteral hall in Kam Tin Village. Perhaps those waving the colonial flag could pay a visit there and learn the stories of the ancestors.


  7. #117

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    I thought public housing in Hong Kong dated from the early 1950s - after the fire in Shek Kip Mei?


  8. #118

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    People play up the whole "look how China's changed" number, saying that "they've come a long way since the 1960s", perhaps ignoring that the administrative role of the colonial gummint too had evolved over time. Nobody expects the post '80s generation to have a clue about what life was like in Hong Kong during the first half and the third quarter of 20th century, beyond boring textbooks and the ramblings of disgruntled seniors (who, what, swam over from across the border with only their shirts on their backs?). It's safe to say that, by then at least, the era of plundering and oppression (?!), and whatever else you want to accuse the colonials of, was long gone.

    Therefore, it stands to reason that when the young'uns wave their colonial flags, it isn't because they agree that dogs and the Chinese should be banned from private clubs and certain public areas, or that they agree with the business of "soaking up riches (stained with the blood and sweat of industrious Hong Kongers) from the fragrant harbour and washing them down the Thames."

    What they know is what they witnessed in the years leading up to the handover - that is what they remember and yearn for - a free press, a swift movement towards full representation in the gummint that is compassionate to their cause (and, obviously, one that sticks it to the commies), and an end to cronyism. Look at the root cause. The way things have panned out over the past 15 years, can you really blame them? They're getting tired of seeing the city's administrators kowtowing to the Central Gummint Liaison office and the leaders in Beijing.

    I agree that integration with the mainland is critical to Hong Kong's survival, not because it is true in and of itself, but because it is how the Communist overlords want it. It has its benefits, on many, many levels, but I call BS on the notion that it is truly needed for Hong Kong's survival to the extent that it is being proposed. Au contraire, over-reliance on the mainland economy will enslave Hong Kongers. The city's administrator's should never permit that, for it will be the greatest let down of a people by their gummint.

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  9. #119

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    OK Dread, what in your opnion should be done to ensure that HK is out of this mess? Practically without resorting to silly notions such as breakaway from the Mainland or bring back the Bristish?


  10. #120

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Dread, ok I accept what you are saying and your last post does make sense! So I am not going to further argue. What irks me are those people who have the audacity to say that they are not Chinese whilst waving the colonial flag as we saw on City forum on Sunday. This really riles the Chinese people.
    It doesn't really rile the Chinese people, as you know most of Hk people define themselves as HK'er first and foremost, only 16.6% defines themselves as Chinese at the latest count:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...esentment.html

    Also that forum was interesting in the fact that even 10 years ago, the notion of HK independence was simply unheard of on this level, to the point for it to be an issue on a televised forum. The whole stream of HK Inpendence (港獨) that came up along with the resurgence of British and HKAM flags over the past year, is clearly a reaction to the heavy interference of the Communist Party in HK politics and the influx of Mainlanders that leaves many people antagonistic against all things up North. Ironically without it the whole of HK would feel much more Chinese.

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