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Cantonese or Mandarin ?

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  1. #21

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    apologies for the harsh tone

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  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irish Man:
    I don't appreciate your sarcastic tone whatsoever, in fact, I think it takes away from the discussion. So you are saying that there are no jobs in Beijing? Are you saying that every expat here needs to learn mandarin to have a job? How many expats can speak fluent mandarin? Again, if you are really serious about learning mandarin, you will use the best method to learn a language, that is total immersion. There are plenty of jobs in Beijing, maybe it's just that you aren't sufficiently qualified to get one. My point is that you wouldn't go to Rome to learn French, and you missed that. Who said anythying about a language camp, again with the childish cynicism. You're right, the jobs are here, and if you want to develop your career here, where (according to you) the jobs are, then learning the most widely spoken language would be most useful, would it not?
    You are waaaay too sensitive. At least I did not call you an unqualified, childish cynic who lacks a serious attitude.

    I am saying that most of us are here to work a job and not engage in language immersion class. Most of us do not have 10-20 years to decicate to learning languages. If you are planning to leave HK and not end up in various China towns in NA, Cantonese is worthless. If you want to learn one or the other, Mandarin is more useful.
    In the real world, where people speak to people in both the US and Newfoundland in English, Gaelic and Welsh are worthless.
    According to this:
    Irish language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    the majority of the people living in Ireland don't even speak Irish. So, apparently, you can't even be guaranteed of having a conversation in Irish in Ireland.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sleuth:
    You are waaaay too sensitive. At least I did not call you an unqualified, childish cynic who lacks a serious attitude.

    I am saying that most of us are here to work a job and not engage in language immersion class. Most of us do not have 10-20 years to decicate to learning languages. If you are planning to leave HK and not end up in various China towns in NA, Cantonese is worthless. If you want to learn one or the other, Mandarin is more useful.
    In the real world, where people speak to people in both the US and Newfoundland in English, Gaelic and Welsh are worthless.
    According to this:
    Irish language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    the majority of the people living in Ireland don't even speak Irish. So, apparently, you can't even be guaranteed of having a conversation in Irish in Ireland.
    don't for one second attempt to lecture me about a language i have spoken my whole life, (and that you clearly know nothing about, hence the need for you to cite "wikipedia"),again, why do you single out welsh and gaelic? Swedish is worthless outside of Sweden, Estonian is worthless outside of Estonia, you could go on forever. Try telling the professional Irish language translators in Brussels working at the EU headquarters that Gaelic is worthless outside of Ireland. Their paycheck will contradict you. As for cantonese being useless outside of Guagndong, you obviously have no idea about the many chinese communities around the world, many of whom speak cantonese.

    In the end, you describe me as "way too sensitive", but you yourself are also just as "sensitive" as me, the tone of your reply (which is similar to mine!) serves to prove that. Eh, you say that "at least I didn't say that you were childish etc..", no, you didn't "say" it, you implicitly implied it, and your need to use this kind of language proves that you are at least no better than me.

    Again, if you are only going to be in Hong Kong for a short time, maybe Cantonese is not the best option for you. However, I did see that the alliance francaise does french classes. I should take this opportunity to learn French in Hong kong, as cantonese will be of no use to me when I travel to Senegal or New Caledonia.

    When you see traditional characters all around you every day, that would certainly help with your learning. But when you are trying to learn simplified characters, it can only serve to distract you. Same logic goes for learning mandarin. Again, if someone is really serious about learning Mandarin, yes, it may be more useful if they intend to live elsewhere in China, but they need to ask themselves, are they in the right place to learn it (if they are really serious about it), there are plenty of jobs in mandarin speaking areas also, hong kong is not the only place in asia that has jobs for foreigners.

    I suggest you do some "sleuthing" of your own with regard to Celtic linguistics, and I believe that true "super sleuths" don't need to "sleuth" around on wikipedia to find articles to cite in debates.

    Nothing personal here, I hope we can still be friends, maybe I can assist your sleuthing in a Doctor Watson type of role!!!

  4. #24

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    You are correct, I became just as sensitive.
    And of course nothing personal.


  5. #25

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    one more thing sleuth, Ireland has seen a heavy wave of immigration over the past five years. (Which is a positive development) Hearing Mandarin, Polish or Estonian on a bus is nearly as common as hearing English. And in fact, in many parts of Ireland, Dublin included, you aren't even guaranteed a conversation in English!


  6. #26

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    I think there may be a little mix-up in understanding of the Chinese spoken and written languages here. Cantonese is spoken in Hong Kong and Mandarin is spoken in China, Taiwan, and Singapore. However, traditional script is used in Hong Kong and Taiwan, while simplified script is used in China (and I believe in Singapore as well). It is a lot easier for traditional script users to read simplified than for a simplified script user to read traditional. It’s worthwhile to mention that a Mandarin speaker generally talks exactly as how it would be written, on the other hand verbal Cantonese does not always correspond to how it’d be written (in fact some Cantonese terms do not even have written characters for) which is probably the most difficult aspect of learning Cantonese.

    Think of Chinese spoken languages as music which uses musical notes. Both Cantonese and Mandarin consist notes/tones, Mandarin has 5 while Cantonese has 9 (although I have never met one Cantonese speaker that can sound out the 9 tones).

    In determining which language to learn, I would consider your goals, how well you plan to learn it, and any longer-term plan for the language use. Like others said, if it is just for simple conversations with the locals whilst in HK, Cantonese will probably be useful. If your job requires doing business with companies in China or Taiwan, you should go with Mandarin.

    Keep in mind that Mandarin is the most spoken language in the world, and with China's expected economic growth and expansion, there may arguably be more likely a longer term benefit to learning Mandarin. Where I work Mandarin lessons are provided regularly to staff, and in local and international schools there is generally a strong demand from parents (both locals and expats) for their children to learn Mandarin.

    Last edited by paenme; 01-09-2010 at 01:14 PM.
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  7. #27

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    Is it really easier for traditional Chinese users to recognize the simplified form? I read Journey to the West, Water Margin (Shui Hu Zhuan) and Three Kingdoms in traditional Chinese at the age of ten. Having grown up in China, I never learned traditional Chinese in school. Ten years ago I was in a conference attended by Taiwan and Mainland scholars. The organizer had a tour of the host city Hangzhou. During the tour, the professors from Taiwan kept asking us what the simplified Chinese characters mean on the street signs and billboards.

    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    I think there may be a little mix-up in understanding of the Chinese spoken and written languages here. Cantonese is spoken in Hong Kong and Mandarin is spoken in China, Taiwan, and Singapore. However, traditional script is used in Hong Kong and Taiwan, while simplified script is used in China (and I believe in Singapore as well). It is a lot easier for traditional script users to read simplified than for a simplified script user to read traditional. It’s worthwhile to mention that a Mandarin speaker generally talks exactly as how it would be written, on the other hand verbal Cantonese does not always correspond to how it’d be written (in fact some Cantonese terms do not even have written characters for) which is probably the most difficult aspect of learning Cantonese.

    Think of Chinese spoken languages as music which uses musical notes. Both Cantonese and Mandarin consist notes/tones, Mandarin has 5 while Cantonese has 9 (although I have never met one Cantonese speaker that can sound out the 9 tones).

    In determining which language to learn, I would consider your goals, how well you plan to learn it, and any longer-term plan for the language use. Like others said, if it is just for simple conversations with the locals whilst in HK, Cantonese will probably be useful. If your job requires doing business with companies in China or Taiwan, you should go with Mandarin.

    Keep in mind that Mandarin is the most spoken language in the world, and with China's expected economic growth and expansion, there may arguably be more likely a longer term benefit to learning Mandarin. Where I work Mandarin lessons are provided regularly to staff, and in local and international schools there is generally a strong demand from parents (both locals and expats) for their children to learn Mandarin.
    Last edited by pizzalover; 01-09-2010 at 01:28 PM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by paenme:
    Keep in mind that Mandarin is the most spoken language in the world, and with China's expected economic growth and expansion, there may arguably be more likely a longer term benefit to learning Mandarin.
    Debatable. According to China's own figures in 2008 just over 50% of the population had any spoken knowledge of Mandarin. Say we take China's (again debatable as some people are counted 2 or 3 times in some cases) population figure of 1.3 billion and then divide by 2 which gives 650 million to which probably 50% of these know Mandarin as a second language (probably more)....blah, blah, blah.

    Very, very unlikely that it is the most spoken language in the world, even if those figures go up to 75%.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaykay:
    Debatable. According to China's own figures in 2008 just over 50% of the population had any spoken knowledge of Mandarin. Say we take China's (again debatable as some people are counted 2 or 3 times in some cases) population figure of 1.3 billion and then divide by 2 which gives 650 million to which probably 50% of these know Mandarin as a second language (probably more)....blah, blah, blah.

    Very, very unlikely that it is the most spoken language in the world, even if those figures go up to 75%.
    I didn't know that. I mean I knew there were many languages but I had assumed most spoke or understood Mandarin. Learn something every day. You would think they would make Mandarin compulsory in schools.

  10. #30

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    Very, very unlikely that it is the most spoken language in the world, even if those figures go up to 75%.

    I am not sure about that. I suspect that that includes a lot of Shanghaiese and Fujianese speakers who still converse in Mandarin almost every day. Certainly, every educated person in most of the PRC speaks Mandarin, even if it is as a secondary language. However, I agree there may be some degree of doubt about how fluent the mass of the population is.