ESF Fees increase

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  1. #21

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    Gilles, as usual you are being extreme and you are not allowing for any middle ground. Both KIA and I seem to agree that one of the benefits of grades is that it keeps the parents honest. Are they working with their children? Are they taking responsibility for their children's development? Are they spending time with their children on homework, reading etc? If my child got a D or an F that would be a wake up call for me, not the child.

    The use of cut and paste, stock standard comments enable things to slip through far more easily than grades do. And for the record, my grades always came with comments attached so we got both.

    Not everything is wrong with the past. In fact, I'd say the old school ways prepare you much better for life than the cotton wool tactics employed today do. Perhaps when your children are 30, still living at home, asking for money every other day and crying to you that they don't like their 4th job for the year and want to quit because it's hard work and they deserve to be manager already you'll rethink your stance.

    As I said before, you don't have to show your children the grades but it's bloody good to know what is going on.


  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by KnowItAll:
    >>These MUST be reported to parents - needless to say, the results of these tests and quizzes are numbers (or metrics of some sort) which result in a kid being sent up or kept back.

    Whats wrong in reporting as much information as possible back to the parents?
    Nothing wrong with that but a letter grade on a report card is certainly not reporting a lot of information.

    If you are not receiving regular assessment that your child are doing, then there's a need to be concerned. There's no correlation on that and putting a stupid letter on a report.

    In swimming for example, no one gets a letter or a report, there are skills to perform and once you master the skills, you move on...

    Criterion based assessment is much more effective and allows students to move at their own pace. The idea is for the kids to get the skills, not be stamped with a number on their forehead. You guys must be in love with the local system, exam them to death and lump all the students who don't master that particular skill in one lot and forget about them.

    As I said, if you think you're getting more information from a letter than from anecdotal comments, there's a problem somewhere...

    What is it that you think is so important for a 6 year old to get that letter stamped on his forehead?

    In any case, I can sleep peacefully because the reality is that most schools and boards are moving in that direction and there are many good reasons for that. If you want to be a fossil, that's your own choice... We'll move with the times and you can comfortably stay in the 20th century and whine about the old days...

    You may think that you had a much better education but there are many things that kids can do today that most of their parents can't... It's a new world.

  3. #23

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    >> What is it that you think is so important for a 6 year old to get
    >> that letter stamped on his forehead?

    How about a 7 year old? 17?

    When is it appropriate in your opinion for *ANYONE* to get a number or a letter stamped on their forehead?


  4. #24

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    Well, as I said, most institutions that are fairly current start grading more officially around 10 years old. There's a practicality issue because students have to enter secondary schools and universities and it's far from being about learning band more about filtering. No much of a need to filter 6-7 year olds


  5. #25

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    A pointless discussion since Gilles is uninterested in actually reading what anyone else says. No one has talked about stamping a letter on anyone's head.

    But, taking your ideas into the real world I think it will work a treat. No one will be awarded a gold medal for coming first in the 100m swimming but everyone will get a certificate saying they mastered the stroke. No one gets a job because that would mean saying one person is better than another but everyone who applied gets a nice letter saying well done.

    When do you suggest a touch of reality be introduced to children?

    And for the record, I am not enamoured with the schooling mentality here but there has to be a balance. Not just for parent's piece of mind but how else do you hold teachers accountable for their own performance if there is no actual grading going on? Are we going to get them to tally up how many glowing comments they wrote as proof they are doing their job?


  6. #26

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    Anyways, as long as we're clear that its ok to start stamping numbers on 10 year old kids, we can get back to the debate of ESF and if it actually does provide value for money.

    But wait, while we're on the topic of ESF and education, do 6 year olds need a laptop on every table? Apparently each class will have five or six laptops.

    I'm pretty worried that they're going to replace basic skills like writing, arts, crafts with power point and adobe photoshop classes. (Ok.. now that was an attempt at humor.... )


  7. #27

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    Who said that arts and craft and writing were better(or worse) than Photoshop or kids paint or whatever...?

    I do think that computer are way overrated and simply a way to throw a bit of dust into visitors eyes.

    The time you spent troubleshooting problems is time spent away from the children. That being said, I don't think it's any better or worse to do writing or art on a pad or a computer.

    As to the idiotic example of gold medals in swimming, it has absolutely no bearing on the discussion...

    And to think that putting a letter on a report card makes teacher more accountable is ridiculous.

    In any case as I said, you can remain in your cave while the rest of the world is moving ahead because the reality is that "old school" is passed and not coming back.

    You want to give 6 years old a dose of reality... geez... Why don't you send them to work in a factory for 12 hours a day while you're at it...

    If you think you can't assess someone without giving a grade, why don't you look around in the real world. How many employees get "A"s in their performance assessments? How many employees get 97% on their customer relation skills? I guess we should give everyone a dose of reality.


  8. #28

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    wow, heated discussion on this topic !!

    FYI, my kid is 10 and in primary 6 at Kennedy. i think she is ready for a dose of the real world where grades count and dogs eat dogs. I never got a job because i was a nice well rounded guy. And in Hong Kong, life is competitive to the extreme, like it or not.

    Anyway, back to the topic....ESF actually do rank kids -- in math class, where they have 4 or 5 levels. But they seem to only consider shifting levels once a year, if that. Mine was in the next to bottom level, until she took a standardized test for admission to another school and scored well above average on math. when i brought this to the attention of her teacher, she was moved up two groups immediately. Begs the question, what are they doing if they don't notice a higher capability until a parent points it out?

    and despite what i said above, i disagree with segregated math classes to begin with. I think it's far better at the primary age to NOT group by ability as some kids develop faster than others but it doesn't mean it stays that way forever or even on every mathematical concept. i think it's just easier for the teacher to prepare one lesson plan and teach to it....having mixed levels requires more work and/or more TA's


  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexander Bundt:
    wow, heated discussion on this topic !!

    FYI, my kid is 10 and in primary 6 at Kennedy. i think she is ready for a dose of the real world where grades count and dogs eat dogs. I never got a job because i was a nice well rounded guy. And in Hong Kong, life is competitive to the extreme, like it or not.
    I find it absolutely shocking to hear words like these... Giving 10 year olds a dose of the real world? You think that won't come soon enough? Grades are really not that big a deal either way. It's not going to make them much worse or better. Life is too short to make kids miserable. At the end of the day, they will be successful or not on their own merit. What they do in P6 or even Y8 is not going to affect their future forever.

    Parents need to loosen up and let kids be kids... The years that really matter are the last 3-4 before university, that's when the screws need to be tightened. Obviously, you can't go from 0-100 in one year and there needs to be a gradual increase in work load and discipline but as long as kids have good habits and are moving along well, there's no need to panic. I am not saying that discipline isn't important but there needs to be balance. It's fairly rare that kids that are pushed really hard make it to the top and stay there. Many end up resenting their parents and some will go as far as harming themselves. Most of the ones that are really successful are pretty relaxed about it. It's fairly unusual to see unhappy people be very successful.

    Many people have the simplistic attitude that whatever worked with them must be good for others. And the seems to think that kids think and react like adults which is far from the reality. Unfortunately, each person is different and recipes have to be adjusted. Some kids need and thrive under competition, others shrivel and fail.

    I think most people will agree that grades are certainly not a guarantee of how successful people will be in life. Of course, you need a minimum of success but after that, your social skills, your drive and a little bit of luck will determine where you end up.

    On top of it, happiness is not necessarily derived from being the first of the class, the richest on the block or the one with the highest paying jobs. Shouldn't it be that parents want their kids happiness first and foremost as opposed to training them to be all that they are or wish that they would be?

  10. #30

    If ESF are increasing the fees they should
    - reconsider employing teachers who are familiar with the new curriculum or retrain current teachers.
    - raise the standard of mandarin teaching both written & spoken
    - provide more than one school report a year
    -decrease the 30+ kids per class ratio to at least 24
    - keep parents informed about the level their child is at for different subjects
    - illustrate to the parents that the final results reflect good education
    - maintain good teacher/parent communication through email/phone
    - offer free afternoon activities

    The homework handouts at ESF are appalling with no specific grade in mind. There is no standard set to follow or book. teachers should mark the homework.

    I would revisit these issues if they are to increase the fees. there is no competition out here so no choice.