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Local (Chinese) guys in dating and some food for thought

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  1. #1

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    Local (Chinese) guys in dating and some food for thought

    It turns out that, (although) I'm a local guy and I happen to have been so interested in the dating topic of local (Chinese) guys. On and off I have gone through multiple threads of geoexpat, some other forums talking about socializing with Chinese people, Chinese learning sites and so on...

    I'd like to start some new discussions here (with reference to what I wrote earlier, http://www.geoexpat.com/forum/thread29192-33.html)

    Another article I just read is: Foreign women label Beijing a dating wasteland (apparently became problematic in an old thread here).

    Well, when everything is said and done, the thing about male-female relationship can be said to be, in a way, entirely not really so dependent on cultural factors. My experience also shows it's all about whether someone is sociable enough to get a date, female or male. This whole gender imbalance issue has been so much discussed that I can no longer see much further, nice development of discussions.

    But what I like to add here now is, though, again highly cultural.
    Last night I (out of pure impulse and curiosity) received a Portuguese guy (I met him somehow in a language forum) who was about to finish his trip in Hong Kong. So we discussed a lot about language issues, food issues, cultural issues... and then he mentioned the dating thing in Hong Kong. With just days of observation, he was wondering how come so many white guys (very often rather old, big, tourist-like) were with some Asian women who "apparently" weren't Chinese. Some others were a combination of white guys and Chinese women. So, anyway, you can expect the same scene you've heard of/witnessed again and again.

    And he asked me: why are western guys (here, he put it as "white") so much into Asian (Chinese) women? why not that western girls are into (local) guys?
    With so much "reading knowledge", I asked him instead: why didn't you put the subject (western women) as the object?
    I won't baffle you with linguistic logics, but what I see is it's even rarer to ask "why are Asian (Chinese) guys not so much into western women?"

    In practice, I witnessed that in daily conversations Chinese guys I know/I bumped into everywhere at the uni/in forums usually simply don't care about the issue at all, usually claiming it to be out of the question. Or some are too superficial to have been put off purely by physical factors. Or some believe in the beta-male superstition. Here, just as how some might have well ignored the opinion of Chinese guys, they too have ignored the personality of western girls.

    But I guess some cultural barriers are quite understandable. First, could you possibly assume that Chinese guys could speak very fluent English and, supposedly less plausibly, western women speak fluent Chinese? I considered it wholesale cultural discrimination when I (on exchange in Germany) bumped into some African girls (and some European as well) and they questioned how come I spoke poor English, and how they criticized my look. In fact, similarly, a minority of European girls back then also clearly rejected me based on look. On the contrary, many Chinese people are reserved enough not to criticize looks in public/in front of you at all. As a Chinese Chinese myself, I considered this too direct. But I found the criticism on my English even less acceptable. OK, let's say it was simply in a foreign country, but back in Hong Kong, clearly you couldn't blame the locals for poor English.

    The second thing is the Chinese guys working long hours and don't quite know how to socialize. I can assure you that this is typical of our society. Unless some social upheavals take place, it'll just stay more or less the same with our working culture, and so will the way Chinese boys are raised and educated. If being humble/modest already denies you a chance since you are said to be too shy, I have nothing to say. If you don't understand one particular cultural trait and complain about it, and even complain in front of a Chinese guy and criticize himself (which is me) as well, my understanding would be that you don't care for my culture anyway and, you can expect, this will be a communication breakdown. Particularly here, I think any guys (or girls), Chinese or not, would almost certainly feel upset to see their culture being, not criticized, but instead downright rejected. As for the socializing thing, back in Hong Kong I discovered that the clubbing culture is more like a luxury than as an inexpensive kind of entertainment open to students as well (as in Germany). Clubbing is per se not really native to my country, so it doesn't surprise me that few Chinese people (guys included) go clubbing as often as in, say, the German environment.

    A third thing is about their weakness with socializing. Yes, that might be true. But here, I think this has more to do with the male-female thing, not with culture. If you aren't sociable enough, you would fail anyway whether you try to approach women of race/nationality X or Y. But what about the rest who are sociable? I'll leave this to sociable Chinese guys (local or not) to talk about.

    Personally, yeah, I do find it very difficult to approach the kind of girls I'm mentioning here. I study (instead of work) for long hours and I can't at all concentrate on socializing - unlike in Germany where I could do in a much more relaxed way. As an undergrad myself, going clubbing is at large out of the question either. Some people do manage it, but, well, I asked some of my male counterparts and they too considered it too hard. I can tell you guys that, in fact, most couples I've met, they got to know each other in very normal occasions such as being in the same major, the same class, have been in the same social occasion (all EXCEPT clubbing!). Some have met their significant others in voluntary work, in Christian social ciricles, etc. When I learned that my American acquaintance had had his first two girlfriends in California through going to parties, I truly didn't believe at all, but he clearly meant it. I've never ever met any Chinese couple of any age to have known each other in parties (in the LKF style, do you get me?). By the time I had to leave Germany, I had already harbored the simple assumption that, to have a stable, faithful, "normal" girlfriend (but who is non-Chinese), I could only possibly meet her in these kinds of normal occasions. However, I'd have a very slim chance by simply staying in Hong Kong or anywhere in my country. Hence, just as we say it's better to move to an Anglophone country to learn English better, most Chinese guys (I witnessed) would agree it's better to do the same to finally meet a foreign girlfriend. Hong Kong Chinese guys, contrary to the almost-being-stereotyped ones outlined in some mainland Chinese cities, are very pragmatic and, well, at least I personally know how to act properly as a Chinese gentleman. Superficially, you say they are "shy" and "think themselves as beta-males", but it's almost entirely up to Chinese Chinese guys to tell exactly what they are actually thinking about. To put it simply, like many Chinese women, many of them have too much financial and social, rather than cultural or even racial, burden in order just to lead a dignified/well-to-do life. By the time they can manage it, so you can expect what I'm going to say, they are already happily engaged with their ideal Chinese wives.

    And indeed, you can consider the language thing and culture thing more deeply. It wouldn't be too impertinent to ask, instead of dates, just how many fluent learners of Chinese there are? Ordinary young Chinese people don't even expect any foreign counterparts to speak Chinese at all, hence all the linguistics assumptions, including those in the dating scene. I could tell from daily observation that, even at the university, the dating scene is just as similar. Many, many Chinese guys are out of the game anyway, whether they speak very good, good, or poor English - needless to say, the ratio of male and female expats is also well imbalanced.

    Telling from some random memory about how some Africans had considered me as a Chinese and my female counterparts, and how we consider African people, I could even claim that the dating scene between Chinese and African people is even more like non-existent. At least, in physical terms, I suspect that our expectations don't quite match, and far less so than with Caucasian people, by far.

    (hope my English is unambiguous and error-free, thanks)


  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by xieza:
    On the contrary, many Chinese people are reserved enough not to criticize looks in public/in front of you at all. As a Chinese Chinese myself, I considered this too direct. But I found the criticism on my English even less acceptable. OK, let's say it was simply in a foreign country, but back in Hong Kong, clearly you couldn't blame the locals for poor English.
    In my experiences, Chinese people are infinitely more likely to comment negatively to your face on your language skills, looks, weight, whatever they want, than Westerners. This is not even something I am half sure about.. I've seen/heard it time and time and time again. There are positives though, the Chinese cut through the BS and tell it how it is

  3. #3

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    the Chinese tell it how it is
    Such a pity they can't extend that to business innit?

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    Yeh.. annoyingly they don't stick to their 'no bs' policy in all areas. You could even say they stray in the wrong areas of life.


  5. #5

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    1) your english is ok, but you try too hard. the rule of thumb is this:
    KISS... that is, Keep It Simple, Stupid! (~stupid~ is not directed at you, but part of the saying.)

    2) i'm a foreign woman married to a local man.

    3) i think the problem is NOT that local men are beta-males, it's that they want to be alpha males. they are not used to strong willed & independent women (which is the reputation that most western women have).

    4) "put off purely by physical factors"? are you refering to the fact that most western women have shape? some even have boobs! most local women have very little shape, many look like lollipops. (stick figure with a head)... yes, western women are "curvier", but as much as some local men may be put off by it, some western women are put off by the "sickly thin" constitution of many local men.

    attraction is initially based on looks, then there has to be something deeper. if that is lacking, the relationship won't go very far.

    4) language/cultural differences. you MUST expect there to be heated discussions with regards to cultural differences, and you cannot get offended by them. just because someone doesn't understand the culture doesn't make them a "write-off". my husband and i have been together for 12 years. we STILL have discussions about the positives and negatives of our two cultures. it is possible to dislike something about the culture but not to reject the person.


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    my post sounds very negative about local women, i'm sorry. it was not meant to be insulting or degrading in any way. just comparisons of "stereo-types" which is NEVER a good thing.

    i usually try to deal with individuals rather than the "stereo-type", but the initial post made it difficult to answer without resorting to more stereo-types.


  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by kryzlowski:
    In my experiences, Chinese people are infinitely more likely to comment negatively to your face on your language skills, looks, weight, whatever they want, than Westerners. This is not even something I am half sure about.. I've seen/heard it time and time and time again. There are positives though, the Chinese cut through the BS and tell it how it is
    Given that gossiping is part of human nature... I've personally heard enough gossip among Chinese girls about the look of university professors, tutors, foreign guys, German girls, me myself, etc... but I'm not female so I can't really tell. The only word of caution I have is never really criticize somebody in front of them. Some girls criticized a German teacher for just how ____ he was, without knowing that he could actually comprehend Cantonese!

    Even internet cultures do reflect how they lead their life. Within hours I got juicy replies here, but in ordinary local forums I'd get a lot of racist (or racist against themselves) replies, especially about the rarity of the AMWF combinations.

    But I'd like to add here is, so far, unfortunately, it's just been as rare for Chinese guys to voice their opinions in this kind of dichotomy. While they objectify (as part of, I'd say as a male, male human nature) western women in this discussion and talk indefinitely about look, they too have been judged more frequently by look rather than what they say about the whole matter. (but here I am!)

    Quote Originally Posted by carang:

    3) i think the problem is NOT that local men are beta-males, it's that they want to be alpha males. they are not used to strong willed & independent women (which is the reputation that most western women have).
    Again, I suspect this is also male human nature. The Portuguese guy above, never been to Hong Kong before, was asking: why are all the old, big white guys accompanied by very petite, non-Chinese looking Asian women, like in Tsim Sha Tsui? Despite all the PC stuff of western origin, I think it shouldn't be difficult to tell somebody's ethnic origin by look generally. But there you are, nobody talks about it, but my own German teacher (German woman settled here, like you) once remarked that this sounds a bit problematic... especially if, who knows, they actually have wives as well back home. I'm mentioning his observation because I suspect it is analogous to Chinese guys (like some colleagues of my own dad, who are blue collars) marrying mainland Chinese wives 20+ years their junior, or even kept just as mistresses. Very often the rationale behind is a kind of motivation for boosting male ego. So, for the independence thing, there are a lot of pervert opinions I won't mention.

    After so much reflection in Germany, I might have become one among the minority of Chinese guys who starts to think along the lines of strong-willed, independent guys. Yeah, I see a lot of college guys happily accompanied by their little Chinese girlfriends, but, like some of you said, they couldn't know what might lead to conflicts before they start to live together (which is commonplace in some European places among young students, but quite rare here thanks to astronomical property prices). And what if they have further career goals, ideals, different values? As a young guy, I gather that they still have a very vague idea about, let's say, values. Expats, ordinary younger Europeans, etc, they tend to have a rather far deeper understanding of values and just about every general issue of human life. I think this has to do with the kind of education they received in the typical western countries (compared to us).

    In my life, I've ever only met a few girls of my age who have expressed their deep thoughts about values (such as animal rights/democracy/censorship/political philosophy/debating/and sexuality, being the least and worst understood). They often had been labelled very headstrong and too ambitious. But it may be surprising that their male counterparts were also quite rare. But yeah, I must say we rarely think that much about values. My claim here is that, instead of being and conservative and thus ignorant, many younger Chinese of my age are actually unwilling to learn, or simply unwilling to debate for truths. Girls are particularly difficult in this regard. And so that may be also why the topic here has been rarely rationally discussed in the Chinese context. It's been actually the expats, you guys, who have been most vocal about these relationship issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by carang:

    4) "put off purely by physical factors"? are you refering to the fact that most western women have shape? some even have boobs! most local women have very little shape, many look like lollipops. (stick figure with a head)... yes, western women are "curvier", but as much as some local men may be put off by it, some western women are put off by the "sickly thin" constitution of many local men.

    attraction is initially based on looks, then there has to be something deeper. if that is lacking, the relationship won't go very far.
    well, usually Chinese guys hold the traditional view of beauty and consider their own female counterparts to be most attractive. They value their YOUTH, and delicate, smooth, pale skin. Indeed, a lot of my counterparts have stated here and there that the Caucasian women simply age too fast/go clubbing too much so that they end up with eye bags and loads of skin problems/get too much tanned and the like. And so I'd say this is a bit shallow, but I can't disagree totally (personally). Just as how Chinese young women can tell themselves, why can't they also consider the personality of the average western women?

    As for the figure of Chinese women, in fact they have been criticized even more harshly by Chinese guys (especially with shape, exactly). Chinese guys generally buy shape after all, but they are more concerned about whether they would fail to approach any western girls for their sizes, and wrongly assume that western girls must reject them on such grounds. Among some young Chinese guys settled in Britain for studying purposes, they even make big claims about just how they are discriminated against, how British girls won't want them for racial(st?) reasons, but how Chinese girls are so sought after by British guys.

    Indeed, I'm yet to be in the state of mind that young western women would find attractive. They value the kind of independence and sundry abilities that I still don't have. But anyway, at least I think they are quite relaxed, frank, honest, straightforward, and just as understanding as their Chinese counterparts. Just because they generally have a more liberal outlook, I found it much easier to discuss many topics that would be deemed (immaturely) taboos among younger Chinese girls, namely sexuality. My understanding through my acquaintance with several European girls was that they, unlike some Chinese girls, generally expected me to just talk just about any sort of crazy topics. I (believe I) know where I should stop, but on looking back I had been too reserved. I just rarely see this kind of (positive) comments ABOUT personality from Chinese guys.

    ==

    So, in this dichotomy, I think it should be a very one-sided kind of arguments, which sound really unfair to both western women and Chinese guys.

    -On the part of western women, I've seen some brief answers like "Chinese guys are too shy and never go clubbing". They are giving reasons related to personality, but still haven't gone in depth about the details. There are conceivably sought-after Chinese guys who don't like this kind of socializing at all. I'm personally reserved about it, because that's not like, in the case of me being a college guy, meeting a girl and engaging in normal conversations in the campus.
    I actually find it quite implausible to claim you can't find a single local guy in a place with a million of them... If somebody does have to work for long hours, you could imagine about his own economic hardship. A lot of local young guys will be trying to pay off school fees after graduation, feed themselves, fight for scholarships, find jobs (with the economic downturn), etc, and simply won't have time to, say, go clubbing.

    -for the guys, I can only say they (me included) are at large just deceived by the racist stuff, and hence the inferiority complex.

    They won't really know how racism really hurts until they are truly verbally attacked. Some African girls were very certain that Chinese guys have small genitals, they told me. And I asked how you can prove it, and they say they don't need any proof. The same happened in Hamburg with the same kind of attacks by some drunk German dudes. And they were attacking the straw man (me) as the "little Japanese guy with small genitals" without even knowing my real nationality. Hilarious but very lame sense of humor. I suspect some guys are behind the scene of dismissing Chinese (Asian) guys as inferior as a kind of political agenda. But on the contrary, (I hope it isn't too off-topic to say) Chinese racism could be just as harsh, because, instead of physical factors, it may well focus far more on (perceived) social status.
    Last edited by xieza; 25-10-2009 at 02:11 AM.

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    i didn't meet my husband clubbing.

    as for "pale skin" vs. "tanned skin".... well, the chinese value pale skin... white people already have it... many white women, prefer the tanned look. you know, everyone wants what they haven't got.

    i have VERY, VERY, VERY pale skin. i don't tan, i burn (in about 3 minutes flat!). pale skin to asians signify wealth. they aren't peasants working in the outdoors. they can afford to "stay inside".

    for westerners, tanned skin can connote wealth as well, they can afford to spend their time lounging at the beach... etc.


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    Quote Originally Posted by carang:
    i didn't meet my husband clubbing.

    as for "pale skin" vs. "tanned skin".... well, the chinese value pale skin... white people already have it... many white women, prefer the tanned look. you know, everyone wants what they haven't got.

    i have VERY, VERY, VERY pale skin. i don't tan, i burn (in about 3 minutes flat!). pale skin to asians signify wealth. they aren't peasants working in the outdoors. they can afford to "stay inside".

    for westerners, tanned skin can connote wealth as well, they can afford to spend their time lounging at the beach... etc.
    Based on that, you'd think it'd be a match made in heaven

  10. #10

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    Dude, chill out. There are all types of attitudes represented around the world by people of all races. I've met lots of white female/Chinese male couples and I know of several right here in HK. There are even quite a few African/Chinese couples here. Get out there, talk to the girls you like, and you'll meet some great ones. I meet amazing local women all the time, although admittedly most of them were educated at the best schools in HK/overseas.

    About the size thing--there are some enormous Chinese guys out there and some tiny black guys. It's an individual thing, so don't sweat it. If you like white women, get out there and talk to some of them!
    唔使驚~~

    Last edited by jayinhongkong; 25-10-2009 at 09:47 AM.

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