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Who likes US of A ?

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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryant.english:
    The thing is DG, like it or not, the USA flounces around the planet playing world policeman and babbling on about 'American values' and 'freedom'.....of course it's going to be scrutinised and ultimately criticised by foreigners, especially when it's evident that it doesn't even practice what it preaches on it's own shores let alone elsewhere...

    The 'fact?' that Americans don't criticise other countries has probably got more to do with the fact that they can't identify most of them on a map than good manners......
    An awful lot of that flouncing is done in response to requests for assistance. Iraq and Afghanistan certainly weren't (more a case of cleaning out hornet nests that nobody else wanted to tackle) but much of the rest was. Do you think that people in Vietnam, Cambodia, Burma, N.Korea, et al. are better off than people in South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan? What about Western Europe? Why do you think that Costa Rica is able to continue to exist, unmolested, without a standing army?

    America is the evil overlord that is invited in, asked to base troops in distant countries that, if your view of Americans as hillbillies who read maps upside-down were correct, American citizens don't give two shits about. America is the despot that allows its own subjects to curse, mock, and damn it without being disappeared, shot, or tortured ... and the subjects of its client states too.

    The USA is far from perfect but the attitudes that you deride created a world that's still flawed and filled with death, loss, and tragedy but one which has a lot of ... freedom and democracy ... and which is much nicer than what might otherwise exist.

    As for Americans not criticizing other countries being a matter of ignorance alone, I think that Americans know as much or more about the rest of the world as non-Americans at equivalent socioeconomic levels. Nevertheless, if you re-read my post, I was comparing apples to apples: American Geo posters vs. non-American Geo posters.

    I am critical of HK and of the Mainland and sometimes of the USA (e.g. the gun problem, hollowing out of the economy, etc.) and perhaps occasionally critical of Russia and North Korea but you would be hard-pressed to find me ranting about another country -- especially a liberal democracy like, for example, the UK, France, Australia, New Zealand, or Canada. This also seems to be true of the other Geo posters who hail from the United States.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    I just thought this guy was a complete lunatic and he happens to be american. Interestingly he is a radio host on over 70 channels(he claimed more on the video) and apparently his listeners are over a million. He made the list of the top 100 talk show radio host in America. I don't know where the hate is though he seems to have plenty...I only see ridicule

    I also see a big difference in laughing at a faraway country that means nothing to most people here vs spitting where you reside. It is easy to see from the petition and Jones' reaction that it's not well received when you are a foreigner and you start dumping on a place that provides you with a home and employment. Very easy and tempting to say that if you don't like it, you don't have to stay.
    That guy is disturbed. A million listeners? Meaningless, in England I used to have the Sun delivered daily and in Australia I listened to Howard Sattler talkback.....because it's funny!

  3. #43

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    Again, I do not think anyone on Geo hates (you do realise that hate is a very strong word do you?) the USA.

    Most posters, me included, just don't think anything in particular of the USA. They do good, they do bad, they have nice places, they have shitholes, they have some friendly people, they have plenty of assholes....

    Really nobody cares much (on geo that is) about the USA - really.


  4. #44

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    Anyone that has a bit of money invested should really care about what goes on in the US because like it or not, anything that happens in the US has global repercussions. Whether Obama caches a cold or Angelina Jolie has a pimple, they'll make sure the world knows about it.

    It's very easy to compare places like South Korea and Vietnam and claim that the leadership is entirely responsible. Had the US not destroyed most of Vietnam and chosen to work with HCM instead of supporting a very cruel and corrupt South Vietnamese government, the history could have been different. If the US government didn't such a bug up their sphincter about Cuba, they certainly would be far better off.

    These interventions were done for political and self interest reasons and that's what many people find insufferable about some americans is that they regurgitate hypocritical BS like dropping atomic bombs saved lives Japan had already offered to freaking surrender but the US didn't like the terms of it.

    The US is just like any other powerful nation that came before. It throws its weight around and abuses of its power. It is certainly less evil than some of its predecessors but defenders of freedom and democracy it is not.

    As to not allowing torture etc... There's plenty of stuff that came out on the media demonstrating that it does happen however it generally won't be condoned too publicly or excuses like enemy combatants will be concocted and it will be done outside the US.

    As to Iraq and Afghanistan, the jury is still out as to whether these countries will be better off and the question will be long debated as to whether the insane expenses related to it were worth it. A majority of americans have appeared to say that it wasn't...

    What many find annoying is when americans use their country as an example of greatness when it is so rife with problems.


  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    Anyone that has a bit of money invested should really care about what goes on in the US because like it or not, anything that happens in the US has global repercussions. Whether Obama caches a cold or Angelina Jolie has a pimple, they'll make sure the world knows about it.
    It's not expatriate Americans chasing people in other countries down on the street, forcing them to stand still, and blasting them with American celebrity gossip. Find me, for example, the secret American (or rather American secret agent) forcing HK TV stations to run American films and TV Shows? Find me the hidden Americans that are compelling local news outfits to make sure that HKers know about every shooting or arson that occurs in the USA? All around the world, sufficient numbers of non-Americans are thirsty for American entertainment and news that those non-Americans elect to provide it. Personally, I would like to see more high-quality HK-produced entertainment and, on the news front, more local reporting (especially investigative reporting).

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    It's very easy to compare places like South Korea and Vietnam and claim that the leadership is entirely responsible. Had the US not destroyed most of Vietnam and chosen to work with HCM instead of supporting a very cruel and corrupt South Vietnamese government, the history could have been different. If the US government didn't such a bug up their sphincter about Cuba, they certainly would be far better off.
    Do you think that South Korea and Japan weren't devastated by, respectively, the Korean War and WW2? Yet they managed to recover well. In S. Korea's case, a country that had been in forced-agrarian mode under Japanese colonial control turned into a breadbasket and the North, which had been the industrial part of Korea, became a living hell. Working with HCM? We can see how well working with dictators over which you have little/no leverage turns out .... efforts to negotiate with the Kim dynasty in N. Korea sure have gone well.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    These interventions were done for political and self interest reasons and that's what many people find insufferable about some americans is that they regurgitate hypocritical BS like dropping atomic bombs saved lives Japan had already offered to freaking surrender but the US didn't like the terms of it.
    Would Japan have left Manchuria, Korea, and Taiwan? For good? Without retaining interests (e.g. Mantetsu in Manchuria) that they'd have used to dig their way back in as soon as America had demobilized? Would the militarists have been held accountable? Would Japan have refrained from rearming and starting another conflict? An occupation and restructuring was necessary and the Japanese government wouldn't agree to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    The US is just like any other powerful nation that came before. It throws its weight around and abuses of its power. It is certainly less evil than some of its predecessors but defenders of freedom and democracy it is not.
    You contradict yourself. Reread what you wrote. Now, do you think that a German/Japan-controlled world would have been better? A Soviet/Maoist world?

    In general, to the extent that the USA is the dominant nation on Earth, its dominance has created favorable conditions for the rise of democratic governments elsewhere. It's a democracy and likes dealing with other democracies because, once they take root, they're relatively stable and predictable. Where it has invaded, it has tried to set up democratic governments. Sometimes successfully. Sometimes unsuccessfully. South Korea wasn't really a democracy until the 1980s. Same with Taiwan. On the other hand, North Korea is still a dictatorship and the PRC is too. Western Europe, except for the places like Spain and Portugal who were close to the Nazis in WWII but not close enough to warrant a good thumping, were democratic from the end of the war onwards. Eastern Europe, under Soviet control, was not. The bits over which Russia is still exercising some control still aren't.

    Yet you claim that it's less evil than some empires that came before and that it's not a defender of freedom and democracy. It's almost laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilleshk:
    As to not allowing torture etc... There's plenty of stuff that came out on the media demonstrating that it does happen however it generally won't be condoned too publicly or excuses like enemy combatants will be concocted and it will be done outside the US.

    As to Iraq and Afghanistan, the jury is still out as to whether these countries will be better off and the question will be long debated as to whether the insane expenses related to it were worth it. A majority of americans have appeared to say that it wasn't...

    What many find annoying is when americans use their country as an example of greatness when it is so rife with problems.
    There is torture, but usually the victims are genuinely believed to have been engaged in or planning to engage in violence. There are drone strikes too. And lots of other stuff. You know about all of these crimes mostly because of American investigative journalism, acting on behalf of a citizenry that either finds such acts abhorrent but necessary or abhorrent and unnecessary.

    As for Iraq and Afghanistan and how they'll turn out ... You can build roads and bridges but it's up to the locals to not blow them up, you can build schools but its up to the locals not to splash acid in the faces of female students on their way to class and not to put bullets in the heads of schoolteachers, etc. They were given a chance. If they, as a society, choose to squander it, then that's a terrible shame. The USA will likely absorb as many of the enlightened, civilization-loving refugees from those places as it can. There are already lots of Iraqi Americans and Afghan Americans.
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  6. #46

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    Note: Can't edit my own post. Meant to say that what is now South Korea had been forced into agrarian mode by the Japanese and used as a breadbasket but had since become highly industrialized while the northern part of the peninsula had been more industrialized but has failed to develop.


  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    It's not expatriate Americans chasing people in other countries down on the street, forcing them to stand still, and blasting them with American celebrity gossip. Find me, for example, the secret American (or rather American secret agent) forcing HK TV stations to run American films and TV Shows? Find me the hidden Americans that are compelling local news outfits to make sure that HKers know about every shooting or arson that occurs in the USA? All around the world, sufficient numbers of non-Americans are thirsty for American entertainment and news that those non-Americans elect to provide it. Personally, I would like to see more high-quality HK-produced entertainment and, on the news front, more local reporting (especially investigative reporting).
    Are you really that naive? You do know that the majority of news/entertainment are owned by relatively few corporations, many of them american owned or influenced. There isn't always such of a choice to air or produce local content.
    http://www.whoownsthenews.com


    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    Do you think that South Korea and Japan weren't devastated by, respectively, the Korean War and WW2? Yet they managed to recover well. In S. Korea's case, a country that had been in forced-agrarian mode under Japanese colonial control turned into a breadbasket and the North, which had been the industrial part of Korea, became a living hell. Working with HCM? We can see how well working with dictators over which you have little/no leverage turns out .... efforts to negotiate with the Kim dynasty in N. Korea sure have gone well.
    They certainly were devastated but because they were occupied and were politically or strategically important, loads of money was spent to help rebuild. That was not charity, it was a simple strategic investment. You clearly know very little of the early opportunities to work with HCM when he battled the French. He was pushed towards China because the US didn't want to upset an ally and had concerns about his socialism. He was much more likely to be a good leader than the South Vietnamese regime. Which is one of the reason the US never got decent support from the local population in Vietnam. The US clearly didn't have too many issues working with dictators such as Hussein or Noriega when it suited them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    Would Japan have left Manchuria, Korea, and Taiwan? For good? Without retaining interests (e.g. Mantetsu in Manchuria) that they'd have used to dig their way back in as soon as America had demobilized? Would the militarists have been held accountable? Would Japan have refrained from rearming and starting another conflict? An occupation and restructuring was necessary and the Japanese government wouldn't agree to that.
    Again you show much ignorance there. In official internal military interviews, diaries and other private as well as public materials, literally every top U.S. military leader involved subsequently stated that the use of the bomb was not dictated by military necessity.

    In his memoirs, Admiral William D. Leahy, the President's Chief of Staff said: The use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender. . .

    Privately in his diary on June 18 1945 he wrote:It is my opinion at the present time that a surrender of Japan can be arranged with terms that can be accepted by Japan and that will make fully satisfactory provisions for America's defense against future trans-Pacific aggression.

    Admiral William F. Halsey, Jr., Commander U.S. Third Fleet, stated publicly in 1946:The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment. . . . It was a mistake to ever drop it. . . . [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it. . . . It killed a lot of Japs, but the Japs had put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before.

    Lots of other examples here:
    http://www.colorado.edu/AmStudies/le.../atomicdec.htm

    So aI guess you are saying that killing over 200 000 japanese is ok just in case of what MIGHT happen years after the fact...

    Seems the military leaders didn't think so...

    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    You contradict yourself. Reread what you wrote. Now, do you think that a German/Japan-controlled world would have been better? A Soviet/Maoist world?
    No I don't and never hinted that it would have been.

    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    In general, to the extent that the USA is the dominant nation on Earth, its dominance has created favorable conditions for the rise of democratic governments elsewhere. It's a democracy and likes dealing with other democracies because, once they take root, they're relatively stable and predictable. Where it has invaded, it has tried to set up democratic governments. Sometimes successfully. Sometimes unsuccessfully. South Korea wasn't really a democracy until the 1980s. Same with Taiwan. On the other hand, North Korea is still a dictatorship and the PRC is too. Western Europe, except for the places like Spain and Portugal who were close to the Nazis in WWII but not close enough to warrant a good thumping, were democratic from the end of the war onwards. Eastern Europe, under Soviet control, was not. The bits over which Russia is still exercising some control still aren't.
    Some of that is laughable, the US government first and foremost wants governments that will work with them. IF it's convenient, sure, it will espouse democracy but there are so many examples of the opposite that it's ridiculous to say otherwise. The US provided arms to Hussein and Bin Laden when it was convenient to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    Yet you claim that it's less evil than some empires that came before and that it's not a defender of freedom and democracy. It's almost laughable.
    You think it's laughable to say that the US is less evil than Germany? OK... Is it less evil than Britain, France, Holland, Spain and other colonial powers of old? I certainly don't think so...

    The US isn't a defender of freedom and democracy, it uses it to further its own self interest and to try to justify its actions. I don't necessarily think it's wrong, it's just the way to play the game just like anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by dear giant:
    There is torture, but usually the victims are genuinely believed to have been engaged in or planning to engage in violence. There are drone strikes too. And lots of other stuff. You know about all of these crimes mostly because of American investigative journalism, acting on behalf of a citizenry that either finds such acts abhorrent but necessary or abhorrent and unnecessary.

    As for Iraq and Afghanistan and how they'll turn out ... You can build roads and bridges but it's up to the locals to not blow them up, you can build schools but its up to the locals not to splash acid in the faces of female students on their way to class and not to put bullets in the heads of schoolteachers, etc. They were given a chance. If they, as a society, choose to squander it, then that's a terrible shame. The USA will likely absorb as many of the enlightened, civilization-loving refugees from those places as it can. There are already lots of Iraqi Americans and Afghan Americans.
    And here we go...couldn't hold it any longer. America the holder of civilization and enlightenment Just like the civilized expats here vs the local savages in flip flops. So where does Alex Jones and its thousands or million listener fit in your enlightened civilized America the Beautiful?
    Last edited by gilleshk; 09-01-2013 at 06:12 PM.
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