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Google and the diversity debate

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  1. #11

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    The Guardian's hot take from good old Owen Jones, can always count on him to virtue signal he is still woke as fuck at every opportunity, by claiming anyone with a differing opinion is a Nazi-saluting alt-right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...r-james-damore

    Best view I have seen came from Quillette magazine, but their servers couldn't cope with the traffic, so here's the archived version:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170808...ntists-respond

    No matter how controversial it is or how great the pushback, I believe it’s important to speak out, because if we can’t discuss scientific truths, where does that leave us?

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiaque:
    I think it all starts in childhood. Girls are conditioned at extremely young ages to be and see themselves as caretakers (dolls), whereas boys are better able to be imaginative (legos). Sorry, can't dig up the reference for that now, but the science is there that shows this.

    Here in Hong Kong we even have an Equal Opportunities Commission chair that says he wouldn't want his son taking care of him when he gets old because his daughter will do a much better job! And so often I see very little girls -- accompanied by their mothers -- with dolls even today. (What the heck are their parents thinking?!?)

    How much is biological, I don't know... but it's very difficult to break the societal stereotypes. As a woman, it's difficult to negotiate life with men who never grew up seeing themselves as family caretakers (because their mothers magically did everything for them), but rather working a full time job and earning a high salary! So for those women who want to pursue jobs at google, where are the house husbands to be taking care of business for them behind the scenes so they can do a good job? Making sure their clothes get to the dry cleaners, making sure a house cleaner is arranged each week, making sure there are some groceries at home, making sure everything is working at home, etc. etc.

    Certainly hope the next generation and future generations of women can be more free from this web of care taking... for me, I will probably never have a family dinner -- in either continent in which I have family -- without men sitting at a table waiting to be served and a woman planning and preparing everything in a kitchen.
    This may all be true but at the end of the day, men still cannot have babies. They can care for babies after birth, but cannot have them. The fact that women have babies - and the hormones necessary for motherhood - does IMHO mean that women have different social skills to men. Not all women to be sure - I have no kids, no desire to have kids and not a great caring personality (and I played with dolls AND lego). But if you were to take a statistical analysis of the personalities of women and compare them to men, I think you would see a different distribution (with a not insignificant overlap). I guess your point is that if girls and boys were brought up differently, that distribution wold change. Yes, I think I agree with this. But i also think that even if you brought some kids in a theoretical utopia with no gender bias, and then tested them, you would STILL see a difference. Some of this is environmental for sure; but a good chunk is genetic. (note, this is about personality, not intelligence).

    EDIT - the quillette article linked above actually provides scientific support for the above (simplistic) views.
    Last edited by HK_Katherine; 09-08-2017 at 03:27 PM.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by kimwy66:
    The Guardian's hot take from good old Owen Jones, can always count on him to virtue signal he is still woke as fuck at every opportunity, by claiming anyone with a differing opinion is a Nazi-saluting alt-right.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...r-james-damore

    Best view I have seen came from Quillette magazine, but their servers couldn't cope with the traffic, so here's the archived version:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170808...ntists-respond
    That quillette article was very good and pretty much summed up where I stand on this. Thanks for the link.
    kimwy66 likes this.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Some aspects of life are different and having kids does affect some peoples life choices. Why would a man with 3 kids spend more time at work!

    [
    Because he needs to work harder to pay for them? Or because he wants to avoid the little buggers?
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  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by East_coast:
    Why would a man with 3 kids spend more time at work!
    Serious?

    Hint:
    [sometimes don't look at the world from your wealthy/comfortable position]
    East_coast likes this.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kimwy66:

    Best view I have seen came from Quillette magazine, but their servers couldn't cope with the traffic, so here's the archived version:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20170808...ntists-respond
    Oh Jesus, just reading the first guy's commentary. Picks random comment on the Internet, then follows up with this statement.

    This essay may not get everything 100% right, but it is certainly not a rant. And it stands in sharp contrast to most of the comments, which are little more than snarky modern slurs. The arrogance of most of the comments reflects exactly the type of smug self-appointed superiority that has led to widespread resentment of the left among reasonable people.
    This is total political hyperbole at its finest. I could easily quote our old friend Dirty Hairy on all-things the right represents.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by civil_servant:
    Oh Jesus, just reading the first guy's commentary. Picks random comment on the Internet, then follows up with this statement.



    This is total political hyperbole at its finest. I could easily quote our old friend Dirty Hairy on all-things the right represents.
    Pretty sure I agree 100% with the quoted text. That Google employee article was pretty well reasoned, not 100% correct but at least fact-based and reasoned whereas I have yet to see a repudiation of it that is actually fact based and reasoned but plenty of rants.
    kimwy66 likes this.

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by HK_Katherine:
    Pretty sure I agree 100% with the quoted text. That Google employee article was pretty well reasoned, not 100% correct but at least fact-based and reasoned whereas I have yet to see a repudiation of it that is actually fact based and reasoned but plenty of rants.
    Whatever. There are a ton of good repudiations online. A simple Google search can give you plenty.

    James Damore Memo: Google Right to Fire Him | Fortune.com

    No need to turn this into a left/right issue, but clearly as one defined as legal/illegal. End of story.

  9. #19

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    I've visited several IT companies before. Woman gets transferred to anything other than programmer after awhile even if they have a CS degree. That's the kind of reality we're dealing with - so instead of improving the product, they would do work - other than - programming.

    If google hires 40% female, then they've essentially decreased their own productivity output, while gaining a different set of perspective. Which makes sense, cause female are the spenders in a typical household.


  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by civil_servant:
    Whatever. There are a ton of good repudiations online. A simple Google search can give you plenty.

    James Damore Memo: Google Right to Fire Him | Fortune.com

    No need to turn this into a left/right issue, but clearly as one defined as legal/illegal. End of story.
    That article is clearly better written and somewhat more reasoned than most others I have seen. However, the argument that firing the guy was right because it focussed on creating a less hostile workplace falls somewhat flat since I suspect now they have a hostile workplace for anyone who wants to focus on facts or indeed think through some issues and write an internal paper about them. I read what the Google guy wrote. As a woman, it did NOT read like "anti women" to me at all. It read like a thoughtful piece pointing out that there are some differences (AND THAT THEY DONT APPLY TO ALL WOMEN) which mean that the current Google policy might not be ideal.... How does that equal a "hostile workplace"? What sort of a company quashes internal debate about its own policies? Surely a better response would have been to have acknowledged the essay, suggested it had positive and negative points and then used it to engage in debate, asking it's women etc how they feel about what was said and how to move forward. Not just firing someone for saying something perceived as hostile (as I said, I didnt find his words hostile at all and do wonder how many people have actually read his essay rather than just assumed what it said.....)

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