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detention of artist Ai Weiwei

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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Well, both are the same basically. If your words, actions are perceived to be a threat to stability and would incite unrest or even revolution then no Government will tolerate it. It's really the extent of the actions.
    Do you really believe this? Do you honestly think that the equivalent of the Occupy Wall St, for example, would be allowed in China without the police coming in and breaking it up ... or aka Tiananmen, the tanks?

    I don't deny that revolution kills (the Arab Spring is a case in point) but to suggest that the US has the same kind of oppression of free speech is not to understand that country AT ALL.
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  2. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Do you really believe this? Do you honestly think that the equivalent of the Occupy Wall St, for example, would be allowed in China without the police coming in and breaking it up ... or aka Tiananmen, the tanks?

    I don't deny that revolution kills (the Arab Spring is a case in point) but to suggest that the US has the same kind of oppression of free speech is not to understand that country AT ALL.
    Apparently “occupy” preceding a Chinese city is now a banned term on Chinese forums.

    See Time

  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by MovingIn07:
    Do you really believe this? Do you honestly think that the equivalent of the Occupy Wall St, for example, would be allowed in China without the police coming in and breaking it up ... or aka Tiananmen, the tanks?

    I don't deny that revolution kills (the Arab Spring is a case in point) but to suggest that the US has the same kind of oppression of free speech is not to understand that country AT ALL.
    I don't deny that the police would come and break it up. Simply because the level of tolerance is lower than in the US. The chances of something happening in say, the "Occupy Wall Street" protests, would be lower as compared to China where the protests could easily get out of control and escalate to something bigger.The riots in London proved that. The situation in China could be thousand times worse. Don't tell me that if the situation arises where by the protestors do incite, the police will not intervene?
    China is a country full of superstitions and it will only take one spark to ignite and inflame a situation. The consequences would be catrostrophic. Foreign influences will start to stir things up mixed with the Falun Gung to create a toxic reciepe.

    This has happened at least 3 times over the last century and the average Chinese is worried.

    Tianamen was a one off over 20 years ago. ALL other countries had their share of using troops to quell their own citizens including US and UK.

    It is moving into the right direction and it will do things its way and not as dictated by others.
    Last edited by HKITperson; 09-11-2011 at 09:02 PM.

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    How many have the CCP (the Chinese Government) killed? Read the book by Frank Dikötter, "Mao's Great Famine" if you need some help working out the answer.
    Yes and how relevant is that today, the modern China?
    If you wish to use analogies then we could equally argue how many people had the US/UK killed and murdered directly an through their proxies. Million? 2 million? 10 million?
    How many people did Chiang Kai Shek kill? His party is still in power! He killed perhaps a over a million supported by the US.
    How many did Marcos kill? His son is a senator.

    Whenever you start to lose an argument, you trot out the same ad-nauseum about Mao. Yes, he made mistakes, yes, many millions died.. but NO.. the party of today is not the same as that 40 years ago.

  5. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    Yes and how relevant is that today, the modern China?
    If you wish to use analogies then we could equally argue how many people had the US/UK killed and murdered directly an through their proxies. Million? 2 million? 10 million?
    How many people did Chiang Kai Shek kill? His party is still in power! He killed perhaps a over a million supported by the US.
    How many did Marcos kill? His son is a senator.

    Whenever you start to lose an argument, you trot out the same ad-nauseum about Mao. Yes, he made mistakes, yes, many millions died.. but NO.. the party of today is not the same as that 40 years ago.
    He was 70% good right? It's relevant because until those in power acknowledge what he did, they will continue to make the same mistakes. That's the difference between the ruling party in Taiwan and that in China.

    As an example of how some things have not changed, compare the falsifying of data in harvests which led to Mao's famine, to the use of rotten concrete in Sichuan to build schools which crumbled when there was the earthquake. As far as those in power are concerned, targets were being met - whether the targets are for grain production or schools being built. Who suffers when it all goes wrong? The ordinary people. Who was in charge in 1960 and 2008? The CCP.

    One reason Ai Wei Wei was arrested, was because he brought the issue of the collapsing schools in Sichuan to everyone's attention. The CCP, seemingly like you, don't like people who do that.
    Last edited by drumbrake; 09-11-2011 at 09:23 PM.

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    I don't deny that the police would come and break it up. Simply because the level of tolerance is lower than in the US. The chances of something happening in say, the "Occupy Wall Street" protests, would be lower as compared to China where the protests could easily get out of control and escalate to something bigger.The riots in London proved that. The situation in China could be thousand times worse. Don't tell me that if the situation arises where by the protestors do incite, the police will not intervene?
    China is a country full of superstitions and it will only take one spark to ignite and inflame a situation. The consequences would be catrostrophic. Foreign influences will start to stir things up mixed with the Falun Gung to create a toxic reciepe.

    This has happened at least 3 times over the last century and the average Chinese is worried.

    Tianamen was a one off over 20 years ago. ALL other countries had their share of using troops to quell their own citizens including US and UK.

    It is moving into the right direction and it will do things its way and not as dictated by others.
    Ah so protests are broken up for the benefit of the people? Yep seems fair.

    If there was another Tianeman type protest today do you think it would be handled any differently?
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  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by hullexile:
    Ah so protests are broken up for the benefit of the people? Yep seems fair.

    If there was another Tianeman type protest today do you think it would be handled any differently?
    Of course to both!

  8. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by drumbrake:
    He was 70% good right? It's relevant because until those in power acknowledge what he did, they will continue to make the same mistakes. That's the difference between the ruling party in Taiwan and that in China.

    As an example of how some things have not changed, compare the falsifying of data in harvests which led to Mao's famine, to the use of rotten concrete in Sichuan to build schools which crumbled when there was the earthquake. As far as those in power are concerned, targets were being met - whether the targets are for grain production or schools being built. Who suffers when it all goes wrong? The ordinary people. Who was in charge in 1960 and 2008? The CCP.

    One reason Ai Wei Wei was arrested, was because he brought the issue of the collapsing schools in Sichuan to everyone's attention. The CCP, seemingly like you, don't like people who do that.
    I don't have an opnion on Mao as to whether he was good or bad. That's for history to decide.
    What I do not like is the constant reference to Mao to justify bashing the current Government which has improved lives and has made tremendous strides towards a more stable, peaceful and prosperpous country.
    The West has it's own agenda an that is to demonize China and to ensure that it is always in civil strife and never become powerful.There is a pattern and it is happening in the Middle East from Iraq to Libya and now noises are directed towards Iran.
    China still has a long way to go and for all its faults in the past, the CCP is simply not what it was 40 years ago.
    It must be allowed to develop at its own pace and agenda.
    Democracy will come, changes will be made but too rapid a change will result in turmoil.. again.

  9. #159

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    There is absolutely no balance in some of what is said slamming. Why would you be in Hong Kong, China as surely by being here you are tacitly supporting the PRC regime as many of us like me have a choice as we come from other countries?

    I think I know what it is like to be in a country where people live in fear - Guatemala 1968 where I was there for a month and doive through that entire country on the way to Costa Rica and back. It was a civil war and people feared their own shadow. Bombs going off, grenades tossed, shootings, tortured bodies and both the right and left were involved. The country was in a state of Siege - the highest level they had. There was terror in people's eyes and faces. Machine guns in your face every day including people like me - car stopped every second block at night. People in complete fear of who they spoke to even Americans there. Bodies mutilated and dumped and where they published death lists in the newspaper while I was there. Yes just like in China.

    I am basically only about seeing some balance in some of these diatribes.

    While China has a long way to go to meet the tests in this just published US study they are heading currently in the right direction. Keep in mind what other nations who should know better and the bad things they did or do even now like torture and jailings without charges (USA) and keep China in perspective.

    While the author of this needn't have focused on the God issue so much he does make some good points about what a nation really needs:

    Claremont Graduate University economist Paul Zak has studied trust among nations and found that the more of these components that are in place, the more citizens trust one another.
    Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/Guest+col...#ixzz1dDqcOUu3


    If you want freedom and security, you need the following:

    The rule of law; property rights; a secure and trustworthy banking and monetary system; economic stability; a reliable infrastructure and the freedom to move about the country; freedom of the press; freedom of association; education for the masses; protection of civil liberties; a clean and safe environment; a robust military for protection from attacks by other states; a potent police force for protection of our freedoms from attacks by people within the state; a viable legislative system for establishing fair and just laws; and an effective judicial system for the equitable enforcement of those fair and just laws.

    With these in place the citizens of a nation feel free and secure. Why? The answer is in the final word of the motto: Trust.
    Read more: Guest column: 'In God We Trust' has no place in modern nations
    Last edited by Football16; 09-11-2011 at 11:31 PM.
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  10. #160

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    Paul Zak says it better than I can but I suspect it will still get the anti-China posters with their panties in a twist.

    Big Think Interview With Paul Zak | Paul Zak | Big Think

    Question: What does this mean for a nation’s potential?

    Paul Zak: So there’s kind of an upside and a downside to this cross-country trust where one is that we find that there is a threshold level of trust in other people below which you get very little growth at all. And that threshold depends on the environment of that country being in. But if trust is too low, it’s just too hard to engage in transactions. There’s too many, what economists call, transaction costs. I need lawyers and judges and the cops to enforce all of these agreements. And so therefore, the number of people I interact with economically gets very small. I am only going to interact with my family or my clan or someone who is really trusted because I can’t count on the government to enforce these contracts. That limits the size of the market and therefore the number of transactions that can occur that increase prosperity.

    So for the developing countries, this is particularly critical that you need to have solid institutions that will facilitate economic transactions. So trust, for example in China is quite high. China has a very effective government; even though it is authoritarian, it's market oriented. And other work I’ve done we’ve shown that with sufficient growth, all authoritarian governments eventually become democracies. So personally, I’m less concerned with China as an authoritarian system—although I think the human rights abuses are horrendous. That will resolve itself as economic growth proceeds, because it moves power away from the center and towards the individual. And when individuals have economic power, they can press a government to be better.

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