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Bin Laden Found Dead?

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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    As with the killing of OBL and that of Ghadaffi's sons and grandkids.... it does feel uncomfortbale that the US and Nato are dishing out summary justices and breaking International law.

    Despite how much we hate these guys, shouldn't we abide by International laws... otherwise we just be as bad... the kids killed were innocent as may have been OBL wife.... should there be a proper inquiry into their deaths?
    Thanks for another brilliant post, HKITperson. Please point out the international laws that have been broken? The US had permission to go into Pakistan to get Bin Laden. The UN has approved the Libyan no-fly zone - nobody is making Gadaffi keep his family in his military bunker. That's his call.
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  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    BTW Guns, India doesn't have too much right to complain. India always tried to play the US and the USSR off one another during the cold war, and resisted any talk of alliances. Since the Cold War ended, the US has given India lots of love especially for the past few years (such as the nuclear deal) even though that love isn't always reciprocated. There is no doubt though, that India and the US are basically on the same page when it comes to Islamic extremism. Being democracies, the US and India are going to be pals anyway, no matter how much political sniping goes on.
    No, infact India tried to reason with pakistan and come to mutual agreement always be it shimla summit, agra summit or lahore summit, or the confidence building measures like running a bus service. But, even the most positive minded elements would turn cynical after, various wars, insurgency in kashmir for 20-30 years, attack on parliament, kargil war and the most recent 26/11 to name a few.

    As regards to the cold war and India playing off US and USSR against each other, that doesn't seem likely to me, for I dont think India was capable of doing something like that, and in those days, we were aligned with USSR for our socialistic bent, where as pakistan was aligned with US.
    But, hopefully, going forward India and USA come to be close friends and get mutually benefitted from the friendship.
    As regards to Nuclear deal, I'd not think of it as a love-gift, but its a proper business deal benefitting both.
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  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freetrader:
    Thanks for another brilliant post, HKITperson. Please point out the international laws that have been broken? The US had permission to go into Pakistan to get Bin Laden. The UN has approved the Libyan no-fly zone - nobody is making Gadaffi keep his family in his military bunker. That's his call.
    So you are advocating vigilante style killings? Say the police were allowed to go into a school because a gunman was taking hostages and he took out the hostage execuation style, killing the teachers and kids in the process... that is ok with you?.. and that because we ended up with a dead hostage taker, the ends justified the means?

    I am concerned that as a supposedly democratic society based on the rule of law that we are so brazen to trample and ignore these laws.

    Even if Pakistan gave permission, then does the US have the right to kill innocents to get their man. Was his wife a wanted suspect? Ditto with Ghadaffi's son and grandkids... what did they do to warrant an execution... aren't they also innocent?

  4. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    So you are advocating vigilante style killings? Say the police were allowed to go into a school because a gunman was taking hostages and he took out the hostage execuation style, killing the teachers and kids in the process... that is ok with you?.. and that because we ended up with a dead hostage taker, the ends justified the means?

    I am concerned that as a supposedly democratic society based on the rule of law that we are so brazen to trample and ignore these laws.

    Even if Pakistan gave permission, then does the US have the right to kill innocents to get their man. Was his wife a wanted suspect? Ditto with Ghadaffi's son and grandkids... what did they do to warrant an execution... aren't they also innocent?
    How about criminal-by-association? I mean its one thing not to know your spouse to be a criminal and another to know and still support him.

  5. #95

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    [QUOTE=HKITperson;1485129] So you are advocating vigilante style killings? Say the police were allowed to go into a school because a gunman was taking hostages and he took out the hostage execuation style, killing the teachers and kids in the process... that is ok with you?.. and that because we ended up with a dead hostage taker, the ends justified the means? [QUOTE]

    The problems with your logic are so obvious that I don't think it is worthwhile to even respond...

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  6. #96

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    I think that's pushing the envelope to expect a peaceful capture of Bin Laden. It certainly could have been worse, one of the option favored by many was to bomb the crap of the compound. Obama chose to put american lives at risk to conduct the operation. One of the reason may certainly have been self serving since it looks a heck of a lot better to have a confirmed kill than a pile of rubble but the less cynical could say that this also potentially limited innocent casualty particularly in the light of the fact that they weren't sure Bin Laden was there.

    I really don't see a set of circumstance where Bin Laden would have been captured alive, if the guy comes out with guns blazing, you can't expect the US to back down and walk away. Even though Pakistan authorities couldn't be trusted, they have been allowing the US to conduct operations on their soil and are somewhat trying to outwardly act as an ally.

    As for the Tripoli bombing, it is sanctioned by NATO so the US should not be shouldering the entire blame. It certainly could have been an assassination attempt though NATO of course claims that they were strictly targeting military and strategic installation. It is not for us to know what the real intent was and it's easy enough for NATO to hide behind the UN resolution and the possibility that it wasn't intentional.

    It is interesting to see aggressive actions being taken once again in an oil rich country under the pretense of protecting the population...Funny that in less prominent african nations, they don't want to interfere with local politics.


  7. #97

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    [QUOTE=Freetrader;1485141][QUOTE=HKITperson;1485129] So you are advocating vigilante style killings? Say the police were allowed to go into a school because a gunman was taking hostages and he took out the hostage execuation style, killing the teachers and kids in the process... that is ok with you?.. and that because we ended up with a dead hostage taker, the ends justified the means?


    The problems with your logic are so obvious that I don't think it is worthwhile to even respond...
    So what you mean is you don't have a response... and perhaps you can answer the fundamental question on whether the killing of children is actually justifiable... just to get at the target?

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    As with the killing of OBL and that of Ghadaffi's sons and grandkids.... it does feel uncomfortbale that the US and Nato are dishing out summary justices and breaking International law.

    Despite how much we hate these guys, shouldn't we abide by International laws... otherwise we just be as bad... the kids killed were innocent as may have been OBL wife.... should there be a proper inquiry into their deaths?
    Not sure what laws you are concerned about. The US in entering Pakistan did what the Israelis did in Entebbe with their hi-jacked plane. There are times the social niceties go out the window. I think they did the right thing in getting Obama and I would have made that exact same decision with few qualms if I were Obama too. Screw Pakistan. They freaking had to be complicit (some facets of their intelligence groups in this one). If Obama let Pakistan know of the raid in advance there would have been US casualties if not a huge disaster.

    Libya bombing is within the rules even though I dislike things that with no exit strategy.

    George Bush Senior like leaders before knew the old rules well. He resisted as his book shows going into Iraq as there was no exit strategy. Libya might well be the same for the current gang bombing there - at least they committed no ground forces.
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  9. #99

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    [QUOTE=HKITperson;1485209][QUOTE=Freetrader;1485141]

    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    So you are advocating vigilante style killings? Say the police were allowed to go into a school because a gunman was taking hostages and he took out the hostage execuation style, killing the teachers and kids in the process... that is ok with you?.. and that because we ended up with a dead hostage taker, the ends justified the means?

    So what you mean is you don't have a response... and perhaps you can answer the fundamental question on whether the killing of children is actually justifiable... just to get at the target?

    Not sure you realize just how police work goes in North America for example. There is no way they 'd go in and risk shooting teachers. In some cases not taking risks has led to some deaths in some hostage/barricaded felon situations as police have waited too long.

    This question you pose is not any scenario I have seen play out unless you take the bus situation in The Philippines where incompetent police there made the death to hostages a reality.

    The US operation is not anything most folks will condemn. In this situation dead or alive meant just that. It was a military operation and not a police operation and the rules just simply apply here like they would if say in a North American city.

  10. #100

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    GillesHK: "It is interesting to see aggressive actions being taken once again in an oil rich country under the pretense of protecting the population...Funny that in less prominent african nations, they don't want to interfere with local politics."

    It is always ironic as off shore on shore Libya are oil rich and not fully developed. Not sure the bombers (Italy via ENI is a producer/explorer there) will benefit. The country who got the Iraq oil deals was China and news says that in Libya the Chinese were negotiating deals with the rebels as the bombs were falling.

    There is no correlation between who fights and bombs and who gets the oil as the PRC keeps proving.

    My sense is that Obama alive would be worse than Obama on the loose - they had to kill him or leave him in his cave house.


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