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Bin Laden Found Dead?

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  1. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBrit:
    Yes, governments never lie do they? Good to see the Pakistanis did not shoot down the intruders over their airspace though.
    Gov't lie all the time but in this case they believed that by telling the story of Bin Laden's death they would get plaudits for this as they have.

    I am very, very familiar with governments lying - heard and seen it first hand as I worked closely with Ministers, Premiers, etc. In fact I learned several things from gov't like "the truth is always an option", "tell the truth - slowly".

    What is not at issue here are the broad facts:
    > they snuck their choppers into Pakistan and avoided radar
    > they struck fast and killed the intruders and scooped Bin Laden's body up.
    > they got out fast before encountering any Pakistan air force.

    If the Pakistan gov't was onside with it and wanted to look like they did not approve they'd simply issue a denunciation of this incursion into sovereign territory leaving out the part of how they worked with the USA on this compound since 2009. This being in their makes it look like they were a bit pissed that the USA did this and made them look bad.

    If the Pakistanis were onside you would not have Brennan and Pannetta denouncing them or saying that they could not be trusted to know.

    When Clinton was President the tell tale sign of a big event like an air strike were the number of pizza deliveries to the White House West Wing.

    This story is a good one for the USA and for their President Barack Obama as this stuff plays fantastic with the citizenry and he needs to shake himself of the Trumps and Pallins. He looks Presidential on this. It takes their minds off the economy.

  2. #292

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    Gov't lie all the time but in this case they believed that by telling the story of Bin Laden's death they would get plaudits for this as they have.
    They have already had to revise their version of what happened several times - armed vs unarmed, shooting his wife dead vs shooting someone else in the leg and using a woman as a human shield vs. nothing of the sort. There are also news reports of him being captured and then executed - sourced from a young girl staying at the compound.

    If you think we're getting the unadulterated truth......

  3. #293

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16:
    HKIT... Pakistan "scrambled" their air force meaning I assume that they put planes in the sky after reports of this event and all the fireworks.

    If these US intruders were in Pakistan air space they could be shot down! Of course they had to get out fast meaning the time on the ground was likely very carefully planned like a bank robbery where they escape before the police arrive.
    This is the part where I fail to understand. Pakistan are allies and they were not in hostile territory. It isn't as though they were in a enemy war zone. Do you seriously think that the Pakistan air force would shoot down a US plane? Would the situation had simply been better if they just stayed put and waited for local authorities? Would they have been arrested?... I don't know the answers but just throwing about some open questions.

  4. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    This is the part where I fail to understand. Pakistan are allies and they were not in hostile territory. It isn't as though they were in a enemy war zone. Do you seriously think that the Pakistan air force would shoot down a US plane? Would the situation had simply been better if they just stayed put and waited for local authorities? Would they have been arrested?... I don't know the answers but just throwing about some open questions.
    Consider this scenario.

    Your good neighbour whom you have known for years walks into your apartment while you weren't at home with a gun and shoots your visiting friend as he didn't like him.

    Do you think your neighbour would wait around for you to return? How would you feel if you returned and he had a gun in his hand and your mate lying dead on the floor.
    HKITperson likes this.

  5. #295

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    Quote Originally Posted by virago:
    Consider this scenario.

    Your good neighbour whom you have known for years walks into your apartment while you weren't at home with a gun and shoots your visiting friend as he didn't like him.

    Do you think your neighbour would wait around for you to return? How would you feel if you returned and he had a gun in his hand and your mate lying dead on the floor.
    But he was not a mate!

  6. #296

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    But he was not a mate!
    He was someones mate!

    Anyway it was hypothetical case.

  7. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by virago:
    If the tide was turned and some sovereign country did a daring raid into the US for a wanted terrorist, do you think the US would like it? Not on your life!

    Another example of USA foreign policy gone wrong. The USA just do what they want and most foreign countries don't have much say in the matter.

    Obama is in Pakistan soon on a visit. It will be interesting to see what happens with the relationship. There is alot of hatred in Pakistan at the moment with the bodyguard there a few months ago killing innocent people has left alot more bitterness in there. I am sure if this continues more terrorist groups will emerge to replace bin laden pretty quickly.
    Mmm, but I thought Pakistan denied OBL was even in the country? It might help, virago, if you read some of the posts before making these comments.

    The Pakistan/US relationship is interesting, but it has always been interesting. There has always been a lot of resentment in Pakistan toward the Americans for supposedly "abandoning" them after the Cold War and for cozying up to India. There are already a ton of terrorist gorups in Pakistan - most of them focused on Kashmir or allied with the Taliban. Pakinstan has been and remains a pretty messed-up country in many ways. What is completely clear, however, is that OBL and AQ are less popular in Pakistan than ever.

  8. #298

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    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    I agree.... if let's say China goes in and snatches some dissident... what would be the reaction in the US I wonder.
    That's a great encapsulation of your moral universe, HKIT. Osama Bin Ladin = Ai Wei Wei.
    Dreadnought and Gatts like this.

  9. #299

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    Quote Originally Posted by Football16 View Post
    HKIT... Pakistan "scrambled" their air force meaning I assume that they put planes in the sky after reports of this event and all the fireworks.


    If these US intruders were in Pakistan air space they could be shot down! Of course they had to get out fast meaning the time on the ground was likely very carefully planned like a bank robbery where they escape before the police arrive.


    Quote Originally Posted by HKITperson:
    This is the part where I fail to understand. Pakistan are allies and they were not in hostile territory. It isn't as though they were in a enemy war zone. Do you seriously think that the Pakistan air force would shoot down a US plane? Would the situation had simply been better if they just stayed put and waited for local authorities? Would they have been arrested?... I don't know the answers but just throwing about some open questions.
    You are not understanding I assume what happens when planes are flying and people back at the base give approval to engage the enemy if they refuse to comply with their orders to follow them to some air base. In this case language too could be an issue.

    What if the Pakistan air force had any skills and simply approached these helicopters as they were in their air space and shot them down - no questions asked?

    This would have be a huge disaster and the Americans would have been pissed but what could they do? Start bombing their capital in retaliation? I doubt it.

    It seems the Americans here knew they had some limited time to get in if they avoided radar, land, shoot the place up and get out in as few minutes as they could and run for the border. American air superiority being what it is - they no doubt knew exactly how long it would take their air force to get planes in the air. I suspect timing was crucial and the assault team and air crews and mission commander knew exactly what they were doing and how much time they had.

    There are all kinds of situations where one country violates another's space like the US invading Canadian waters in the Arctic to try and prove these are international waters and not part of Canada's coast and lands as most of the islands are occupied by few people up there if at all. The US is supposed to register with Canada but they thumb their noses at us and we protest each year. I doubt Canada is big enough to start bombing Washington to get even. Just like Pak'n is not likely to retaliate other than if a trigger happy air crew took one of them out.

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